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Notitia Dignitatum
#1
(01-23-2016, 10:51 AM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: There is evidence in the Notitia for three different colours of dracones.

I was looking through the images from the ND on your site for these. Do you mean the dragon or snake-like devices shown on some of the shield emblems, or are there actual depictions of standards with poles and coloured tails? Could it be that the emblems are intended to show the 'creature' itself, rather than the military standard?
Nathan Ross
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#2
Luke, are you familiar with Berger´s work?

Our analysis of the [different notitia dignitatum] documents reveals that a reliable record of the late antique objects, compositions, and spatial organization is accessible in this set of illustrations [meant is M2], for M II is based on a tracing of the Spirensis , the lost Carolingian manuscript of the Notitia. This tracing is our most important link to the late antique version.“

P.C. BERGER, The Insignia of the Notitia Dignitatum, A contribution to the study of late anti- que illustrated manuscripts, New York / Garland 1981, p. xviii.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#3
No, I've not been able to get hold of a copy. If you have one in electronic form, I'd be most grateful for a copy!


As far as I am aware there is no evidence the M2 set were "traced" in the sense most people assume - i.e. a direct copying through a translucent sheet; on the contrary, the evidence points to it being done indirectly.  The M2 set also suffers from truly horrible inking that obscures many of the drawing lines underneath.  So while it is in many ways the most reliable - for somethings - especially broad spatial details, it is demonstrably less reliable in some others, particularly in fine details.

As far as I understood it, Berger means by "tracing" a very close copy of the spirensis. Just in the sense you say.
The whole conversation about the genesis of the Munich manuscript was preserved and investigated by Berger. It turned out that the person who commissioned the copy was not satisfied, as it was too much "Zeitgeist", and commissioned a second set of the miniatures, which had to follow the spirensis as close as possible. This resulted in the second set of miniatures in the Munich manuscript. So far, then, what we know is that this is in regard of colour, text and spacing the closest copy of the spirensis. There were also investigations made with art-historical method, showing that the colour etc. on M2 is the closest one to what was typical at the time when the spirensis was made. 

Unfortunately I do not have a electronic copy, but I highly recommend a read.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#4
(01-30-2016, 04:17 AM)lukeuedasarson Wrote:
(01-27-2016, 12:43 PM)caiusbeerquitius Wrote: Luke, are you familiar with Berger´s work?

Our analysis of the [different notitia dignitatum] documents reveals that a reliable record of the late antique objects, compositions, and spatial organization is accessible in this set of illustrations [meant is M2], for M II is based on a tracing of the Spirensis , the lost Carolingian manuscript of the Notitia. This tracing is our most important link to the late antique version.“

P.C. BERGER, The Insignia of the Notitia Dignitatum, A contribution to the study of late anti- que illustrated manuscripts, New York / Garland 1981, p. xviii.

No, I've not been able to get hold of a copy. If you have one in electronic form, I'd be most grateful for a copy!

This may be related to her 1974 New York University thesis The Notitia Dignitatum, which can be obtained from ProQuest.

(01-30-2016, 04:17 AM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: As far as I am aware there is no evidence the M2 set were "traced" in the sense most people assume - i.e. a direct copying through a translucent sheet; on the contrary, the evidence points to it being done indirectly.  The M2 set also suffers from truly horrible inking that obscures many of the drawing lines underneath.  So while it is in many ways the most reliable - for some things - especially broad spatial details, it is demonstrably less reliable in some others, particularly in fine details.

I recall reading that M2 was traced on to waxed paper, which implies that the paper was treated to make it translucent and, therefore, to allow a direct tracing to be made.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#5
(01-30-2016, 11:12 AM)Renatus Wrote:
(01-30-2016, 04:17 AM)lukeuedasarson Wrote:
(01-27-2016, 12:43 PM)caiusbeerquitius Wrote: Luke, are you familiar with Berger´s work?

Our analysis of the [different notitia dignitatum] documents reveals that a reliable record of the late antique objects, compositions, and spatial organization is accessible in this set of illustrations [meant is M2], for M II is based on a tracing of the Spirensis , the lost Carolingian manuscript of the Notitia. This tracing is our most important link to the late antique version.“

P.C. BERGER, The Insignia of the Notitia Dignitatum, A contribution to the study of late anti- que illustrated manuscripts, New York / Garland 1981, p. xviii.

No, I've not been able to get hold of a copy. If you have one in electronic form, I'd be most grateful for a copy!

This may be related to her 1974 New York University thesis The Notitia Dignitatum, which can be obtained from ProQuest.

(01-30-2016, 04:17 AM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: As far as I am aware there is no evidence the M2 set were "traced" in the sense most people assume - i.e. a direct copying through a translucent sheet; on the contrary, the evidence points to it being done indirectly.  The M2 set also suffers from truly horrible inking that obscures many of the drawing lines underneath.  So while it is in many ways the most reliable - for some things - especially broad spatial details, it is demonstrably less reliable in some others, particularly in fine details.

I recall reading that M2 was traced on to waxed paper, which implies that the paper was treated to make it translucent and, therefore, to allow a direct tracing to be made.

Ingo Maier's description makes it clear they are indirect copies, because the pictures in W are not the original tracings (his "W" equals your M2) - see in particular the conclusory second last paragraph of p 21, which I will quote here


"Second, the pictures in W are not direct copies of those in the alt exemplar and they were not traced from the pictures in the alt exemplar. This is demonstrated by the request discussed on 19.Jun.1550, and by the evidence of the existence of the tracings on paper in 1557, and by the fact that the pictures in W exist on vellum. The pictures on vellum in W are copies of the tracings, on transparent paper, of the pictures in the alt exemplar. The pictures in W are, therefore, indirect copies of those in the alt exemplar. And, importantly, an examination of the vellum in W reveals no evidence that the paper tracings were retraced onto the vellum in W".

This is one of the reasons I show copies of all the primary MSS on my site, and not just W, because W sometimes isn't the best, and that appliess particularly with the shield patterns, where spatial relationships aren't so important, but things such as colours and preservation of fine detail are.

(the treatment was with oil, by the way)



ProQuest is something I am not familiar with.  A brief search of their site makes it look like my university (Osaka) does not appear to have joined them, so it would appear I am out of luck...
Luke Ueda-Sarson         
[Image: Herculiani.png]
My "Notitia dignitatum" compilation shield patterns page
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#6
It is a but much to skim over it. Does he agree with berger that M2 / W is closest to the original in general? =)
Thank you for the link! Smile
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#7
I have split the comments about editions of the Notitia Dignitatum from 'color of the draco' thread, as this seems to go into an entire new direction.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#8
(01-30-2016, 01:21 PM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: Ingo Maier's description makes it clear they are indirect copies, because the pictures in W are not the original tracings (his "W" equals your M2) - see in particular the conclusory second last paragraph of p 21, which I will quote here


"Second, the pictures in W are not direct copies of those in the alt exemplar and they were not traced from the pictures in the alt exemplar. This is demonstrated by the request discussed on 19.Jun.1550, and by the evidence of the existence of the tracings on paper in 1557, and by the fact that the pictures in W exist on vellum. The pictures on vellum in W are copies of the tracings, on transparent paper, of the pictures in the alt exemplar. The pictures in W are, therefore, indirect copies of those in the alt exemplar. And, importantly, an examination of the vellum in W reveals no evidence that the paper tracings were retraced onto the vellum in W".

I take the point but, if the Count Palatine Otteinrich was concerned about accuracy, it would appear perverse if his artist went to the trouble of tracing the original and then copied the tracing inaccurately. As to matters of detail, my post here may have some relevance:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/thread-...#pid287527

(01-30-2016, 01:21 PM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: (the treatment was with oil, by the way)

You are right, of course: a lapse of memory on my part.

(01-30-2016, 01:21 PM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: ProQuest is something I am not familiar with.  A brief search of their site makes it look like my university (Osaka) does not appear to have joined them, so it would appear I am out of luck...

This is no problem. You can create a personal account and order it on that (I have just done so).
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#9
(01-30-2016, 01:53 PM)caiusbeerquitius Wrote: It is a but much to skim over it. Does he agree with berger that M2 / W is closest to the original in general? =)
Thank you for the link! Smile

In general, yes.  Certainly he uses it as the basis of his numbering system for the pictures, because it undoutably preserves the spatial arrangements the best.

(01-30-2016, 11:13 PM)Renatus Wrote: I take the point but, if the Count Palatine Otteinrich was concerned about accuracy, it would appear perverse if his artist went to the trouble of tracing the original and then copied the tracing inaccurately. As to matters of detail, my post here may have some relevance:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/thread-...#pid287527


Well, the problem is the tracings and the subsequent transferral into the manuscript were probably done by different people. And I would suggest Ottheinrich was likely not so happy with the result; he did after all later obtain the original itself... 

But whether or not both the initial tracings and subsequent drawings into W were done by the same person, it is certain that the inkings over the top of the drawings produced by the copying of the paper tracings onto the vellum was done by a different person; this inker was a very sloppy worker indeed!

As an example, take a look at the pattern of the Tertia Diocletiana Thebaeorum. The two figures of the imago were drawn well enough onto the vellum, but the subsequent inking has turned them into two vertical lines, looking rather like the numeral "II" instead of the two figures clearly shown in all the other MS copies (and leading to whoever reconstructed the pattern for Wikipedia Commons to assume it was a miss-enumerated "III" for Tertia!).

(Moderator - perhaps the thread would be better named "Notitia Dignitatum images"?)
Luke Ueda-Sarson         
[Image: Herculiani.png]
My "Notitia dignitatum" compilation shield patterns page
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#10
(01-31-2016, 06:14 AM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: As an example, take a look at the pattern of the Tertia Diocletiana Thebaeorum. The two figures of the imago were drawn well enough onto the vellum, but the subsequent inking has turned them into two vertical lines, looking rather like the numeral "II" instead of the two figures clearly shown in all the other MS copies (and leading to whoever reconstructed the pattern for Wikipedia Commons to assume it was a miss-enumerated "III" for Tertia!).

You have the advantage of me in that I assume that, in your extensive study of the Notitia, you have been able to study sources not available to me. However, examining the M2/W image of this shield online, I see no indication of the two figures drawn beneath the two lines that you mention. I do not seek to dispute the interpretation of the various copyists that two figures were originally depicted but it has to be said that, in the images in the Oxford and Paris copies online, these figures are barely recognisable as such. In fact, were it not that they seem to have legs, one would have some difficulty in making out what they represent. Perhaps the deterioration of the Spirensis before the making of the tracings leading to M2/W, which I postulated in the post cited above, could account for the discrepancy.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#11
(01-31-2016, 06:14 AM)lukeuedasarson Wrote: (Moderator - perhaps the thread would be better named "Notitia Dignitatum images"?)

Perhaps, but who knows where the discussion flows.. Wink
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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