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Origin of the Alans
The Arimaspi and Argippeans: an R1a1a Link to Haplogroup Q1a2a

In my last post, we discovered Professor Haskins noticed cranial variations within the Yuezhi/Pazyryks. And previous to this, I suggested the eastward movement of "proto-Arimaspi" ended in the Altai where they became neighbors of the Argippeans (Tuvans). What we didn't have was a solid link: it was conjectural. Now we have the needed proof.

In 2014, Clemence Hollard et al. published a paper, "Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age." Hollard and associates used DNA from a dozen individuals buried on the eastern side of the Altai, at Tsagaan Asga (Mongolia) and Takhilgat Uzuurs-5 (China). They not only compared the DNA but refined their search to include probable hair and eye color.

   
The individuals in the Hollard study were dated from the Bronze age to the very early Iron Age, and one grave dated back to the Afanasievo culture. The majority of the results comprised of R1a1a (4 individuals) and Q1a2a (3 individuals). (The Q haplogroup was dominant in ancient Central Siberian people, Tuvans included.) According to Hollard, 7 out of 10 individuals had a, "major proportion of European ancestry."

   
Here are two of the individuals from the Tsagaan Asga cemetery. Three individuals in this cemetery were R1a1a and three others were Q1a2a, showing a cultural blending between "steppe intruders" and a local population. We are looking at direct ancestors of the Arimaspi and Argippeans in the Middle Bronze age. They have yet to become a "horse-culture;" and in fact they are buried with NOTHING, no horse... not even a clay pot. What we do see is a person lying on his or her right side-- the classic Pazyryk position.

   
To visualize the people in the Hollard study, we need cranial characteristics. At left (A) we have a Pazyryk skull, then (B) a Tagar skull, and finally © a Tuvan skull. The Pazyryk cranium is wide and short, just like we see on the wide-faced horsemen pictured in Kushan Bactria and again on the Alan vessel from Kosicka, Russia. The Tagar skull is robust with a jaw that can still be found on cult-film actor Bruce Campbell. The Tuvan skull is delicate, and the chin is prominently pointed (in fact cropped from the bottom edge of the photo). This Tuvan skull is precisely what Herodotus records within the Argippeans, "bald headed people with pointed chins."

The women found in Pazyryk kurgans generally fall into the latter class, indicating prevalent intermarriage between the Yuezhi and their dependent tribe, the Tuvans. Also interesting-- most of the skulls are classified as "Europoid," both the Pazyryk and Tuvan examples. Modern Altaians and Tuvans are heavily Mongoloid, due to a strong Xiongnu genetic infusion after c. 162 BC. But an interesting fact remains-- the Bronze and Iron Age Tuvans, typical Siberian people, were classified as "Europoid."

My question is this, "What did ancient Tuvans actually look like?" Looking at a "bare bones" skull really doesn't do it. Can we ever "flesh out" this empty stare?  Confused
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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Messages In This Thread
Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 03:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-04-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-04-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-05-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-05-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-05-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-05-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 12:28 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-06-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-06-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-06-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-07-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-08-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 01-08-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-08-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-09-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-09-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-10-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 12:23 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-11-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2016, 03:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-22-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 01-22-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 01-22-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-22-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-23-2016, 11:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-24-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-24-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 01-25-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-25-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-27-2016, 08:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-28-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-28-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 01-29-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-29-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Urselius - 02-01-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-01-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-08-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-09-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-10-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-10-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-11-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-11-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-12-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-13-2016, 08:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-14-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-16-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-24-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 02-25-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 02-24-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 02-24-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 06:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-25-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-25-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-27-2016, 10:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-29-2016, 03:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 02-29-2016, 03:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-29-2016, 05:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-02-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-02-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-06-2016, 11:47 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-07-2016, 05:10 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-10-2016, 09:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-11-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-11-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-11-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-13-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Athena Areias - 03-14-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-14-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Rennie De Giorgio - 03-17-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-19-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-24-2016, 03:55 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-27-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 03-29-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-29-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-03-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-04-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-04-2016, 06:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-09-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by sea78 - 04-10-2016, 08:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-11-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-13-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-13-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-14-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-14-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 04-19-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-15-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-15-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-16-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-16-2016, 09:43 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-18-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-19-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-19-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-21-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-22-2016, 11:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-29-2016, 02:03 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Steven James - 04-29-2016, 05:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-02-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 05-09-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-10-2016, 02:27 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-11-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-15-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 05-16-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 05-24-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-11-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-23-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-24-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 06-27-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-28-2016, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 06-28-2016, 04:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-14-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-17-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-19-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-19-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-19-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 04:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-20-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by ValentinianVictrix - 07-20-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-20-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 07-21-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 03:19 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 07-26-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 07-26-2016, 07:45 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-14-2016, 09:18 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-15-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-23-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-23-2016, 10:05 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 01:35 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-24-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-24-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 08-30-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 08-30-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-02-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-02-2016, 10:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 09-14-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-21-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-24-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-01-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 10-01-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 10-30-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-01-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-01-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-03-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-13-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-17-2016, 07:36 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-17-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-05-2016, 12:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Dan D'Silva - 12-06-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-05-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 09:54 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-06-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-06-2016, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 12-07-2016, 12:31 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-07-2016, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 12-08-2016, 08:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-08-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-12-2016, 03:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-16-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-18-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-23-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-01-2017, 05:42 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-22-2017, 10:29 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 02-02-2017, 01:51 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-03-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 02-19-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-02-2017, 07:34 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-02-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 04-03-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-07-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 04-08-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-08-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 04-23-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 05-02-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-14-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by childeric - 09-14-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-14-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 09-19-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-20-2017, 12:46 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 09-26-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 09-28-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Merlkir - 11-03-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-04-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-06-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 11-26-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-03-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-03-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-04-2017, 06:17 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-10-2017, 10:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-14-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 12-15-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 12-17-2017, 09:45 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 01-11-2018, 08:09 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-17-2018, 09:40 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-18-2018, 12:10 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-20-2018, 01:24 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:47 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 03-20-2018, 10:09 AM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Alanus - 03-20-2018, 01:14 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 03-22-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Robert Vermaat - 06-16-2018, 06:38 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Renatus - 06-16-2018, 09:32 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Michael Kerr - 06-17-2018, 01:25 PM
RE: Origin of the Alans - by Sean Manning - 06-21-2018, 02:20 PM

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