Origin of the Alans

[Alanus]

Alan, I don't think that you fully appreciated the importance of the information in my post. You are describing modern populations and Ancient/Medieval illustrations, I was describing Ancient DNA.

Population genetics studies of recent years showed that the population of Europe had three components -  One component was identified to indigenous hunter-gatherers, another to the Neolithic farmers of Middle Eastern origins and the third was unknown.

The use of DNA extracted from burials of the Early Bronze Age Ukraine, of people of the Yamnaya Culture, have identified the third component of European ancestry. A mass migration of these people in the Early Bronze Age resulted in the transmission of their genes to almost all Europeans -  the Yamnaya are the best candidates as being the original proto-Indo-European speakers - they also were the originators of the R1b marker. The Yamnaya also migrated into Central Asia to give rise to the Afanasevo Culture (proto-Tocharian?).

I do appreciate your input, Martin. However, I think it's flawed from too few DNA samples, and someone's view of what amounts to an Invasion Theory. You are suggesting a "mass migration" of the Yamnaya Culture into Europe, thus a "transmission of their genes to almost all Europeans." That's pretty heady stuff!!

There was no mass migration... not into Europe. I believe the last proponent of that scenario was Marija Gimbutas.

As of yet, there's no true concensus of Haplogroup R1b. And when we look at DNA maps of R1b, they don't show any traces of a Indo-European cultural expansion into Asia... in our case, Indo-Iranian. This was a very real expansion, West to East, going from the Yamnaya Culture, to the Andronovo Culture, to the Afanasevo Culture, so on and so forth. In this case, it was also a population expansion but not a mass migration. Where in Asia do we see R1b? Take a look:

   
   
   

On all three maps, R1b is insignificant in Asia yet heavy in Europe. The only logical explanation according to this data would discount the existence of the Saka, Yuezhi, and Wusun entirely. They and their ancestors disappear! With R1b, we find no blond, blue eyed people in Asia. Obviously, the pics of the Tajiks and a Tocharian monk I posted earlier were fakes.

Yes, these are modern maps and they don't show the ancient populations. But why, and I mean WHY, are the incredibly dark map areas located Right Next to the Atlantic Ocean? Did the Yamnaya people slam against the Atlantic and then, having no boats to go further, marry into every port-district along the coast? That's what these maps indicate... and I'm too old a fart to believe it. Something smells fishy in Denmark, and I think it's R1b.

I believe the reference to a mass Indo-European migration into Europe (yet not even a trickle into Asia) is outdated. That's not how dominant language transmission worked nor has it changed. Language spreads through the power elite, an elite that controls political advantage, cultural hierarchy, tribal customs, and access to trade goods. No huge migration involved. In this fashion, a small number of Spanish elite changed the language of the Meso-American natives. It's the reason English is the second language in China... where no huge migration arrived.

Please remember-- Language travels fastest when riding a horse... or zipping across the Internet, particularly in the sales sector, like on Ebay. Using the correct language results in recognition, prestige, and a fatter wallet. While you're certainly correct on the importance of the Yamnaya Culture, I don't believe there was a heavy influx into Europe of the magnitude of a "mass migration." And I see nothing wrong with R1a1a as being the dominant gene in the Eastern steppe tribes whom we know as the Saka, or within the Indo-Aryans either. While I respect your dissention, I can't agree with it until more studies of R1b are done.

For accurate information on how language works, I suggest David Anthony's, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language; also the classic, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, by John P. Mallory.

PS: DNA leaves a "trail." Taking a second look at these DNA maps, I would venture that R1b was carried by ships rather than by horses. The hotspots reoccur typically along ancient seaport areas. Just a wild guess, but R1b may have originated in Iberia. Tacitus mentions the ancient Welsh tribe of Silures as coming from the Spanish coast, also the same people went to Ireland. Then we have more exceedingly dark areas in Armorica, and up to Scandinavia and even Iceland. The chances of a mass migration of Yamnaya Indo-Europeans to these areas is about the same as colonizing Mars.

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