Unknown scutum painting

[Uwe Bahr]

Avete omnes,<br>
<br>
recently a friend of mine painted a Roman optio figure basing on SGF Models' kit MR-15:<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/uwe-bahr/Optio004.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
The painting on the scutum relies on a photo he made on a great re-enactment event several years ago (Leiden/NL 1997?):<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/uwe-bahr/Optio001.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
My question is: does anybody here know more about the original pattern to that the scutum paint of legio XI Claudia PF refers? The trident, dolphins and sea capricorns seem to direct to naval battle/s in the legion's history.<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance - Uwe <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

It was not Leiden but Bunnik near Utrecht, but indeed in 1997, the weekend of may 31st/June 1st. I was there and took this picture:<br>
<img src="http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/od37l.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
He's also in [url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/odspread1l.jpg" target="top]HERE[/url], in the left third of the picture, just right of the very white <em>labarum</em>.<br>
I assume he belonged to either the German or the Swiss Leg. IX Claudia. The German group has a different shield design today (though based on dolphins and a trident), the Swiss group was re-formed two years later (1999), which is why I think tracking down the owner of this particular shield is no longer possible. <p>Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert<br>
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 2/17/05 12:25 am<br></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

I know I've seen tridents & dolphins in Roman sculpture quite pften. Perhaps on mythological sculpture? I don't remember, but will have a look through my photos. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Uwe Bahr]

Robert,<br>
<br>
You are right, although I was present there too, I obviously confounded Leiden with Bunnick.<br>
<br>
IIRC does Your fine large photo show one the moments when all participating groups joined together at the parade place listoning to the speech of the Roman legatus and subsequently displaying some combat scenes inclusive artillery demonstrations. <p></p><i></i>

[Andrew Brozyna]

I'm not so sure the shield blazon as a whole is based on any one archaeological source. It seems to me the owner of this shield took artistic license, mixing elements from various sculptural representations to make this composite design. <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Not the same, but it contains dolphins & a trident. Photo taken at the Museum of Roman Civilization (Rome). I don't immediately recognize the provenance, but it's a scene of soldiers and their emperor (Marcus Aurelius, I think).<br>
<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/RATstuff/shieldsculpture.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Tarbicus]

Hey Jasper, I would rather: pluck my eyes out so I cannot see it; rip my tongue out so I cannot ask it; cut my fingers off so I cannot type this -<br>
<br>
Is that leather segmentata on the right? The studs running down the centreline and moulding to the body have greatly unnerved me. Stylised is one thing, but that looks very faithful to something.<br>
<br>
Please tell me this is artistic interpretation, although I don't see where the older classical Greek reference would be to base it on?<br>
<br>
please please please <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Greek, why would there be a Greek reference?<br>
I'd rather say this kind of sculpture is what the idea of leather seg is based on, but since this is definitely local Roman sculpture, there's no reason why all the arguments against it, like against Trajan's C., should not be applied. By that reasoning: the sculpter didn't know what he was sculpting. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

One interpretation of this sheld was that it could be a marine, or a legion with naval connections. If so, leather armour would not be practicable, as it would lose all effectiveness in the wet.<br>
<br>
If iron, the sculptor could just be following the classical convention of showing body musculature.<br>
<br>
But I agree, it still looks very odd. Can the leather theory be ruled out? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hijacking the thread a bit but in this picture<br>
www.fectio.org.uk/shows/odspread1l.jpg<br>
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It looks great. I love it when groups get together in numbers.<br>
Butby my quick count, there are 50 soldiers, 9 standard bearers, 8 optios and 4 Centurios.<br>
That's a bit top heavy.<br>
<br>
This must be a headquarters unit. <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Since it's not only the thread you're hijacking, but also my picture , I must protest.<br>
There are (at least) 76 soldiers shown here (and more to the left outside the picture), and about 17 standard bearers/officers. I may have counted some optios as soldiers, but even so..<br>
Sure, that would still mean too many chiefs and too few indians, but remember this was a multi-national event (groups from about 8 countries took part), and the stress may not have been so much on correct representation. If you're going that way, even if there had been just one centurio, there would have been far too many shield designs.<br>
It was a great event and a great weekend, starting me off in the direction of re-enactment. <p>Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert<br>
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 2/17/05 2:23 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

These are Playmobil toy soldiers.<br>
For everybody they are soldiers, for many they are medieval soldiers, and for some they are medieval soldiers armed with a halberd, a half cuirass and some sort of morion.<br>
However, they do not look at all like the real thing. We all agree on that..<br>
I think the sculpture shown --as well as TC and others-- have to be looked at the same way. The image is a code and this image was the code for a segmentata and I doubt very much it was leather.<br>
If leather was used --and it certainly was-- scale or lamellar armour would be the result. www.gardenwargaming.com/gallery/tamas2/images/1gwguards.jpg<br>
As for the shield emblem I didn't know it and thanks for posting it. The only similar --more or less- emblem can be found on the famous ship relief(Praenestine ship?) where a soldier on board sports a shield bearing a trident emblem, with a shield boss fashioned like a fist holding it.<br>
...And I counted 81 soldiers of all ranks in that great panoramic picture..<br>
A whole century<br>
Coming soon: a whole cohort?<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/17/05 2:48 pm<br></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Well put! And d'oh of course, the Praeneste relief! <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Andrew Brozyna]

On the subject of the possible leather armor pictured above. It bears a resemblance to the odd strip armor depicted on the base of Trajan's column. That was captured from the enemy, so you couldn't say it was an artist trying to represent segementata. Could it be that this Dacian/Sarmatian armor later made it's way into Roman army and evolved into what we see in the above photo? All speculation, I know.<br>
<br>
I don't have a photo handy, bit I could scan one if anyone were interested in a side by side comparison. <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Perhaps it's more probable that Roman artists only had a description of lamellar armor worn by their soldiers and made something up? Ssomeone began it and the rest copied/improved upon that first design? <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>