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Continuing Mis-Identification of the Altai Culture
#1
Probably nobody cares, but the continuing ever-present references to the Altai (Pazyryk and Tuva) Cultures as "Scythians" is wearing incredibly thin. Maybe I'm an old fart, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Is this important? Yes it is, because the Altai people of the 6th to 3rd centuries BC were directly related to the formation of the Sarmatians, Alans, and Wusun... who then invaded Roman space.

Beautiful artifacts made by the Altai cultures are consistently shown in museums around the world. At the Hermitage or National Museum in Washington, or in the Ashmolian, these examples are always labeled as something like, "Scythian, 400 to 300 BC, Pazyryk."

Scythian? Excuse me, but did the Scythians move 4,000 kilometers northeast from their well-recorded geographical location? If we casually read Herodotus, Strabo, or Pliny, or look at Ptolomy's map, we know the Scythians lived in the western steppe above the Black Sea, NOT in the far eastern Altaic region.

Who were these tribes whom our present archaeological community continuously-- and erroneously-- refers to as "Scythians"? Can we find a better name for them, perhaps something correct? Certainly, and all we have to do is look at a map according to Herodotus or Ptolomy. Check these out:


[attachment=12909]BC_450ca_HerodotusWorldMapLinguistic2.jpg[/attachment]
According to Herodotus' map, these people were the Issedones.

[attachment=12910]Herodotus_world_map.jpg[/attachment]
Here is a closer look of the map, the tribes still being the Issedones.

[attachment=12911]herodotus_map_by_Jona_Lendering2.jpg[/attachment]
Let's ask RAT's own Jona Lendering. Hmm... he shows the Issedones.

[attachment=12912]PtolomysMap.jpg[/attachment]
How about a 4th opinion? Let's ask Ptolomy. Oops! He claims they were the Issedones.

So what's the problem? Why do archaeologists and modern historians insist that the Altai peoples were "Scythians." They're driving me crazy! :dizzy: Just about any old ancient historian and geographer knew exactly who lived in the Altai. They were the Issedones.

Thank you for putting up with my raving, but another museum identification tag about "Scythians" is going to make me scream! :woot: :woot:


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#2
The Byzantines called the Kievan Russians "Tauroskythoi". Scythian was just a shorthand for any people from the West-Eurasian steppe and its hinterland, The Romans and their Byzantine successors were, for the most part, indifferent to the demography of barbarians. That modern scholarship has inherited some of this tendency is not so surprising.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#3
Gee whiz, Martin! That's a poor excuse. :mad:

This is the 21st century, and modern scholarship ought to differentiate left from right. The Issedones didn't live on the "West-Eurasian steppe."

In today's world, being "indifferent to the demography of barbarians" really doesn't cut it. We're not Themistius making a dumb-assed speech about the "Scythians" (Goths). We are scholars who've spent $100,000 of Daddy's money to get a proper education. We can do better, we can be accurate, and we can give the Indo-Iranian Altai Cultures their due respect. 8-)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#4
The Issedones were a mysterious people mentioned by Greek poets Alcman and Aristeas around the 7th century BC. JP Mallory wrote that the Issedones were regarded by some as trading middlemen who seemed spread out like a lot of steppe tribes, over a large area and that they both controlled the Ekaterinburg Pass through the Urals and the territory as far east as the Yenisei River. They seemed, according to the maps to have lived north or north-east of the Massagetae in semi-desert country so were probably traders and pastoralists. Whether they controlled all these areas at one time we don't know but Aristeas mentions that the Arimaspians fell upon the Issedones and that they in turn attacked the Scythians who in turn attacked the Cimmerians around the Black Sea.
Some associate the Issedones with the Sarmatians, some with the Wusun and judging by their location at one time around the Tarim Basin, with the Yueh-chih. So possibly Indo-Iranian or Tocharian but distinct from the Scythians and Saka while Grousset in his book Empire of the Steppes suggests maybe even Finno-Ugrian stock.
If the Issedones drove the Scythians west around the 7th century BC then I often wonder if the Pazyryk kurgans from around the 3rd or 4th centuries BC are Scythian at all and maybe they could be Issedone. Sergei Rudenko who discovered the Pazyryk kurgans mentioned that the chieftain buried at Pazyryk had been carefully embalmed with brains and viscera as well as muscle tissue removed. He theorised that the muscle tissue may have been consumed in a ritual cannibalistic rite which Herodotus mentioned was a characteristic of Issedone burials although the skull was not removed and gilded like in the description by Herodotus.
Below is a rough schematic from the book The Urals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages which tries to trace the movements of various tribes and groups. :-)

[attachment=12914]schematic2.jpg[/attachment]

Regards
Michael Kerr


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Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#5
The Romans called the Hellenes "Graeci" after some minor NW Greek clan they first came in contact with on the opposite side of the Adriatic. Indigenous Americans became "Indians" after a major geographical cock-up by Cristobal Colon, whose name the Spanish themselves mangled. Misnaming is everywhere Smile
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#6
Quote:The Issedones... seemed, according to the maps to have lived north or north-east of the Massagetae...
If the Issedones drove the Scythians west around the 7th century BC then I often wonder if the Pazyryk kurgans from around the 3rd or 4th centuries BC are Scythian at all and maybe they could be Issedone. Sergei Rudenko who discovered the Pazyryk kurgans mentioned that the chieftain buried at Pazyryk had been carefully embalmed with brains and viscera as well as muscle tissue removed. He theorised that the muscle tissue may have been consumed in a ritual cannibalistic rite which Herodotus mentioned was a characteristic of Issedone burials although the skull was not removed and gilded like in the description by Herodotus.

Thanks for the insight, Michael. Herodotus grew up in western Asia, was familiar with Indo-Iranian peoples, and wrote his history around 420 BC-- exactly the period when the Altai cultures were active. In his descriptions of various tribes, he follows the Northern Trade Route (west to east). The Route ran along the northern edge of the steppe, below forested lands (below the Urals), continued east to the Altai, and then turned southeast across the Gobi and Ordos to enter China at "the Bend" of the Yellow River.

The Northern route traversed above the Kara Kum, the Ungar Pendi, and the Takla Makan. Therefore, the tribes in the southern sectors-- the Yue-chi, Saka, and Wusun-- are all eliminated as possible "Issedones." Most telling is Herodutus' shortened version:
"This Aristeas visited the Issedones; beyond these live the one-eyed Arimaspoi, beyond whom are the Gryphons that guard gold... I cannot say how the gold is produced, but it is said that the one-eyed men steal it from the Gryphons."

Aeschylus, a contemporaneous writer, notes (rather poetically), "Beware of the sharp-beaked hounds of Zeus that do not bark, the Gryphons, and the one-eyed men mounted on horses, who dwell about the flood of Plouton's stream, that flows with gold..."

These two passages pinpoint the location of the Issedones, who live just before the Arimaspoi who steal the Gryphons' gold from their nests. The tribe just west of the Issedones, and just after the "high mountains that nobody crosses" (the Urals), is described as the Argippaeans who "have a language of their own, but their dress is the same as the Scythian." The Argippaeans would be the Sargatskya in archaeological vernacular, living in the forest-steppe zone above the Massagetae and speaking what may have been Indo-Uralic.

The only place, then, that the Issedones could have lived would be at the juncture where the Northern Trade Route turned from west-east to northwest-southeast-- the Altai. The Issedones' southeastern neighbors were the Arimaspoi, the one-eyed men... an interpretation which is in error. The Indo-Iranian word for horse is "asp," so "aspoi" actually meant "horsemen," as mentioned by Aeschylus, and not "one-eyed," the interpretation by Herodotus.

The final geographical clues are the Gryphons, their gold stolen by the Arimaspoi. Today, we recognize the Gryphons as fossil remains of the Protoceratops dinasaurs, the "sharp-beaked hounds of Zeus." Their egg nests are actually those of a different and bird-like dinosaur. Protoceratops skulls and these dinosaur eggs are found aplenty in only one location-- just below the Altai in the wastelands of the Gobi. This pinpoints the exact location of the Arimaspoi (perhaps a proto-Turkic tribe), and definitively places the Issedones to the northwest, in the gold-rich area of the Altai.

I don't see a problem with this account. The aid of Herodotus and Aeschylus gives us a precise location that cannot be any further west, north, south, or east. I respect the work of Mallory and his modern contemporaries, but perhaps Rudenko was the closest. The Indo-Iranian Altai Cultures were the Issedones and nobody else. :-)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#7
For your enjoyment:

[attachment=12917]Issedonewarrior.jpg[/attachment]
An Issedone warrior.


[attachment=12916]TheArimaspoi.jpg[/attachment]
Arimaspoi warriors looking for Gryphon eggs. :grin:


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#8
For your enjoyment:


[attachment=12918]Issedonewarrior.jpg[/attachment]
Issedone warrior, reconstruction, Pazyryk Kurgan III

[attachment=12919]TheArimaspoi.jpg[/attachment]
Arimaspoi warriors (proto Hsiong-nu) searching for Gryphon nests and their gold. :grin:


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#9
And here is the final (and definitive) clue to the location of the Issedones-- an actual Gryphon, the "sharp-beaked hound of Zeus." (Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound) :whistle:

[attachment=12920]Protoceratops--aGryphon.2.jpg[/attachment]


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#10
A lot "established" of Greco-Roman geographical interpretations are now being questioned. There was a paper recently published that identifies the "Seres" and "Serica" not as China, but as Cherala in India.
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#11
Quote:A lot "established" of Greco-Roman geographical interpretations are now being questioned. There was a paper recently published that identifies the "Seres" and "Serica" not as China, but as Cherala in India.

Hi, Evan
Greco-Roman geographical "interpretations" are being revised, but these revisions may not be accurate and will, in turn, be revised again. There are problems. Many modern historians are not geographers yet they play at the game. On the other hand, the geography of Herodotus is surprisingly accurate considering his time, as was the poem of Aristeas almost 200 years before him.

Both wrote for sensationalism, reciting their work before a live audience. However, the average well-versed Greek knew reality from fable. Supposedly, Amazons cut off their right breast so they could be better archers. Supposedly. I have examined Greek and Roman Amazonian statues in 3 different Italian museums, and every Amazon was chiseled with 2 breasts. The same thing is true of Greek depictions of the Arimaspoi, the so-called One-Eyed Men. Here's a vase showing 3 Arimaspians fighting gryphons. Neither person has a singular eye, and both are female and dressed in typical steppe costume.

[attachment=12921]M16_5Grypes.jpg[/attachment]

The important thing about the accounts of Aristeas and Herodotus is their accurate geographical locations of each tribe starting with the Scythians along the Black Sea, then traversing the Northern Trade Route, across the Altai, and through Mongolia-- home of the gold-stealing Gryphons. You cannot, as either a revisionist geographer or shocking-thesis historian, change the reality of the Northern Route. It was the original trans-Asian conduit, in place 2,000 years before the Han-generated Silk Road. The location of the Issedones falls exactly in the Altai, nowhere else.

I'm not seeing any posts in this thread that contradict it. Martin talks about Columbus and Amerindians, and you project a differing interpretation for the Seres. Neither of these arguments are a rebuttal. They're excuses for continuing sloppy scholarship, basically claiming, "All steppe tribes were Scythians... or a Scythian is a Scythian."

The Altai tribes were Issedones, not Scythians... and the Arimaspians were proto Turkic. Herodotus wrote it well, some 2,400 years ago. Wink


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#12
Sorry nothing to do with Issedones but on their neighbours the Seres but without reading the paper identifying Cherala as Serica I have doubts about India being the home of the Seres rather than China. Firstly the word Seres which seemed to have something to do with silk growing and “Seraculture” and even if the Chinese would not name themselves after an occupation maybe the Greeks would. Eventually silk production spread to India via Tibet but not until about 140AD. A lot of the Roman geographers mentioned the Seres long before that.

Pomponius Mela the Roman geographer mentioned the Seres in mid 1st century when he wrote “In the furthest east of Asia are the Indians, Seres, and Scythians. The Indians and Scythians occupy the two extremities, the Seres are in the middle''.


A lot of the problem with some identifying India as Serica lies with Pliny the Elder who mentioned the Cheras who seemed to be a ruling Tamil dynasty who carved out a kingdom which was located on the west coast of India who sent an embassy to Claudius and described the Seres as living beyond the Emodi Montes or Himalayas. They gave a physical description of the Seres to Claudius as they knew them from sight as they traded with them often. They described them as tall with blue eyes, red hair and harsh voices. ( Were these men Wusun or Yueh-chih both people were renowned traders although Pliny does mention Tocharians elsewhere so he would have mentioned them as Tocharians if these Seres were Yueh Chih? The Wusun seemed to be China most westerly allies.) So were these Seres who traded with the Cheras
Indo-Europeans who traded with or worked for or even lived under the rule of the Chinese emperor and traded via India which then shipped goods to the Romans by sea to Egypt as the Parthians and the Sassanids after them over many years blocked land trade with Rome. :-) :-)
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#13
The Issedone warrior is clearly an ancestor of Vladimir Putin.
Pecunia non olet
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#14
Quote:The Issedone warrior is clearly an ancestor of Vladimir Putin.

Sorry. No cigar. :whistle:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#15
Michael, back to you in the next post.... but first Breaking News!!

Book Review
By Steppe, Desert, and Ocean: The Birth of Eurasia
by Sir Barry Cunliffe ("One of our greatest living archaeologists.")

Oxford University Press just released Sir Barry Cunliffe's massive tome, 512 pages, into the public domain... a little bit earlier than the publishing date of November 10th, so Sir Barry can make more moola. "For sure," I thought, "Good old Sir Barry will have something worthwhile to say about the Issedones and Altai cultures." I was regrettably Wrong.

He treats the earlier Karasuk Culture correctly, yet unaware (or unmentioned) that they were the likely foundation of the Altai group. Somehow, Cunliffe manages to cross wires. Instead of following the Northern Trade Route according to Herodotus, he takes off on his own. In a carefully projected map (p. 233), Cunliffe inverts Herodotus' sequence, placing the "Issedonians" just east of the Aral. The next tribe east is the "Agippaei," then the "Arimaspians," and finally scaling the heights of the Altai, he places his strangely-named tribe-- "The Gold Guarding Griffins"-- on the highest peak.

Therefore, another "one of our greatest archaeologists" got it Completely Wrong, replete with inventing a brand new tribe. He moved the Gryphons from the Mongolian desert, and turned them into humans. Hopefully the Queen will tap him on the shoulder again, saying, "Barry Dear, the Gold Guarding Griffins were dinasaurs, not people."

Even as a barbaric "Roxolanian," I am dismayed. Confusedad:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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