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Carthage to Chauci
#1
Hullo ( Hail)
Here is the field of battle for my contest:
"The Chauci were one of the most prominent early Germanic sea raiders. They are probable participants in the Germanic flotilla that was destroyed by Drusus in 12 BC. They were raiding the coasts of Roman Belgica in AD 41, long before they participated in further raids of the same coasts under Gannascus in AD 47. It is likely that their raiding was endemic over the years, as the few surviving accounts probably do not reflect all occurrences. Tacitus describes the Chauci as 'peaceful' in his Germania (AD 98), but this is in a passage describing the non-coastal, inland Chauci, whereas sea raiders are necessarily a coastal people.

By the late 2nd century Chauci raiding was ongoing and more serious than before, continuing in the North Sea Channel until their last recorded raids c. 170–175. While there are no historical sources to inform us one way or the other, it is likely that the Chauci continued their raiding and then played a role in the formation of the new Germanic powers, the Franks and Saxons who were raiders in the 3rd century.

There is archaeological evidence of destruction by raiders between 170–200, ranging along the Continental coast down to the Bay of Biscay, to northwest Belgica (e.g., fire destruction at Amiens, Thérouanne, Vendeuil-Caply, Beauvais, Bavai, Tournai and Arras), to coastal Britain (e.g., fire destruction at the eastern Essex sites of Chelmsford, Billericay, Gestingthorpe, Braintree, Wickford, Kelvedon, Great Chesterford and Harlow). The perpetrators are unknown, but Chauci raiders are among the prime suspects.

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"The panegyrics also contain an interesting later note about the Franks. Nazarius, in Panegyric IV (to Constantine, dated c.320), has this to say:


Those very Franks who are more ferocious than other nations held even the coast of Spain infested with arms when a large number of them spread abroad beyond the Ocean itself in an outburst of fury in their passion to make war. These men were felled under your arms in such numbers that they could have been utterly wiped out if you had not, with the divine inspiration with which you manage everything, reserved for your son the destruction of those whom you had broken (and given) the most valiant Caesar the firstfruits of an enormous victory...
(panegyrici latini IV, 17.1-2) "
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Tin exports from Britain rose during 4 - 7th centuries , going along the Seine to Rhone headwaters which are quite close. Then to Marseilles , while luxuries and payment went back to Britain. Tempting booty for pirates / vikings. ( small v).

So that is the opening survey of the field. Please comment and more to follow
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#2
In Lebanon, baal means "rainwater". There were 3 Baal gods in Tyre , deities of the sea and storms including Baal Zaphon. He had a temple in Carthage and was known in Marseilles with its Tariff inscription. Maybe "Balearic" islands relate to Baal and Spain which had Baal sites was late in accepting the Church. There was a Syrian settlement on the Rhone river and they were known as sharp dealers and traders. An inscription at Hadrian's Wall by a north African cohort prefect describes a goddess of Syria.
The Rhone is difficult for river-boats during floods from the Alps and Baal may have been known to crews from the international port at Marseilles.
Veneti produced large cargo ships like the Belgae vessels for trade with Britain. Perhaps Chauci mariners paid cash for bulky loads like grain and entered the Seine harbour to meet Marseilles crews. Maybe they hijacked a laden ship and sailed to Germany.
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Old Norse balkr means "storm" which is not Indo European root *bal - "strong".
It seems to be loaned to Gaelic as bailc "storm" , but is not known in Fr or Brythonic.
It appears as Bhealtuinn bailceach
" Beltane (May). floods", in the way that milk, cheese, lambs and deer are Bhealtuinn products. But Scotland has its flood rains in winter and rain is not really needed as it is in Carthage-Syria. So a confused semi-deity role for "bailc" may indicate an elemental force to be revered and observed, connected with wealth from pirating in dangerous waters.
How do you see it?
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#3
Quote:How do you see it?

I'm not sure what point you're making here, John. The stuff about the Chauci is quoted from Wikipedia - are you implying there's a connection between them and Carthage? Or Baal and Beltane?
Nathan Ross
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#4
Yes.
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#5
Quote:Yes.
On what grounds? I read your hypothesis below, which seems mainly based on (scientifically impossible) comparisons between unrelated languages and an equally unwanted comparison of words in a modern form, who do not bear any similarity when in their older form.

For instance. 'beltaine' has no relation to 'bel' or 'baal' as you suggest, not does the word indicate 'may floods' or something similar. Beltaine comes from the Celtic *belo-te(p)niâ, which means something like'bright fire'. The Indo-European connection with orther languages indicates a common meaning of 'white' - compare the English word bale (OE bael meaning "white" or "shining"), or Lithuanian baltas/balts, Slavic byelo.

All very explainable related, none meaning anything like Baal, which is a Greek derivation from the word ba'al. This word, however stems from the group of Northwest Semitic languages such as Ugaritic, Phoenician, Hebrew, Amorite, and Aramaic, and commonly means 'owner', 'lord' or 'husband'. Unrelated to Beltaine in any way.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#6
> "Old Norse balkr means "storm" which is not Indo European root *bal - "strong".
It seems to be loaned to Gaelic as bailc "storm" , but is not known in Fr or Brythonic.
It appears as Bhealtuinn bailceach
" Beltane (May). floods", in the way that milk, cheese, lambs and deer are Bhealtuinn products."
Bel "bright fire" as Bealtaine , or "fixed in May " as Bhealtuinn ( Armstrong 1825) is the Beltane ceremony of Scotland and Ireland.
Vikings held the Orkneys, Dublin and London and ON balkr "storm" seems to be a Gaelic borrowing.
Baal the Semitic deity is explained already.
He is not Bhel but my question is about the attachment of the word "bhailceach" which is glossed as "floods, seasonal showers" at the time of Beltane.
In particular, is it likely that Marseilles Baal culture reached North sea pirates who were focussed on the sea-and-river trade route?
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#7
Sorry John but you are making enormous leaps which cannot be supported by either etymology, archaeology or history.

Quote: "Old Norse balkr means "storm" which is not Indo European root *bal - "strong".
It seems to be loaned to Gaelic as bailc "storm" , but is not known in Fr or Brythonic.
Sorry but no.
Old Norse balkr "partition"or "furrow", both from Proto-Germanic *balkon- (cognates: Old Saxon balko, Danish bjelke, Old Frisian balka, Old High German balcho, German Balken "beam, rafter"), from PIE *bhelg- "beam, plank" (cognates: Latin fulcire "to prop up, support," fulcrum "bedpost;" Lithuanian balziena "cross-bar;" and possibly Greek phalanx "trunk, log, line of battle").
I especially like the phalanx and (not mentioned here) the possibility of fulcum also being derived from this word.
But never 'storm'.

Quote: " Beltane (May). floods", in the way that milk, cheese, lambs and deer are Bhealtuinn products."
"fixed in May " as Bhealtuinn ( Armstrong 1825) is the Beltane ceremony of Scotland and Ireland.
Again, no. The meaning of the 'bel' root in 'Beltaine' is (as posted yesterday) 'bright' or 'white', not 'fixed in May'. That this month was named after the festival does not mean that the festival means 'in the month of May'.
Using a book on etymology from 200 years ago is not supporting anything. Etymology did move on.

Quote:In particular, is it likely that Marseilles Baal culture reached North sea pirates who were focussed on the sea-and-river trade route?
I don't know any 'Marseille Baal culture' in the first place. The posibility of Phoenician traders setting up shop in the south of Gaul is one thing, to assume that there even was a 'Baal culture' there is an enormous leap of faith without any proof.
The Chauci were a sort of proto-Saxon sea-raiders, totally uninvolved in the land trade acros Gaul. This was the area of Gaulish tradesmen, under the wings of the Roman Empirre. The Chauci lived to the North of the Roman border, occasionally raiding the coast. There is no room whatsoever for any cultural influences from Phoenicians who may or may not have had trading posts in the south of Gaul during the period of the 3rd c. BC and Germanic pirates who raided the coast of Northern Gaul during the 2nd and 3rd c. AD (there's a gap of 300 to 500 years!).
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#8
[PDF]Old Norse loanwords in modern Irish - Lund University ...

lup.lub.lu.se/student-papers/record/4861711/file/4861798.pdf
by R Farren - ‎2014 - ‎p 21.

ON bálkr or bólkr m.‘vedvarende Uveir’; veðra-bálkr ‘Uveirsafsnit, Uveirsperiode, Uveir, Storme,

( unrelenting, incessant rain ).
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The rain is " May-produced" like milk ,butter, lambs, deer and so on. Scotland's storms are in winter and of no great benefit to Scots .
" Scot Gaelic : bealtuinn May-day, Irish béalteine, Early Irish beltene, belltaine,."
The fixed day 1st May is Beltane. So : "bright"-"fixed" "rain"-"producing".
The taine fire and tuinn fixed are optional additives to Bel.
Beltane is still observed today and and the word bailc would have traditional significance if attached to Bel at any point in history.
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"Carthage also .. early Christianity. Tertullian rhetorically addressed the Roman governor with the fact that the Christians of Carthage that just yesterday were few in number, now "have filled every place among you —., senate, forum; we have left nothing to you but the temples of your gods." (Apologeticus written at Carthage, c. 197).
"Spanish Canons of the Synod of Elvira (circa 305 AD) indicate that the church was greatly isolated from the general population even at that time. The situation of the Christians in Iberia improved with the advent of the Edict of Milan in 313 AD, after which Christians were more or less free to practice their religion openly within the Roman Empire. Over the course of the 4th century, the church built significant footholds particularly around Seville, Cordoba and Toledo."
"Though currently a part of Spain, throughout history the Balearic Islands have ... perhaps the islands were sacred to the god Baal and the resemblance to the ..."
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Evidently, Baals were lingering on, probably more so in dangerous sea-faring conditions ( The British, Dutch, US and Russian Navy keep the Neptune rituals crossing the Equator).
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" The Drachma coins minted in Massalia were found in all parts of Ligurian-Celtic Gaul. Traders from Massalia ventured into France on the Rivers Durance and Rhône, and established overland trade routes to Switzerland and Burgundy, and as far north as the Baltic Sea. Pytheas hoped to establish a sea trading route for tin from Cornwall, his trip was not a commercial success, and it was not repeated. The Massalians found it cheaper and simpler to trade with Northern Europe over land routes."
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Opportunists in the piracy business likely had various operations. Maybe they bought products in Gauls' ports, got employment in the off-season on Seine river tin barges or hijacked a cargo ship to take home to the family on Friday. Sailors share a sea culture and no passports were needed between Norway and ....south India?
The inscription by a north African at Hadrian's Wall about a Syrian goddess and the Roman mish-mash of ethnic troops probably made it hard to avoid hearing about such things as Baal.
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"Almost 800 of these coins were minted during the reign of Carausius, which lasted from around AD286 until AD293 . . After his crushing of revolt in north-eastern Gaul. .the newly reconstituted Classis Britannica – the British fleet – the Senate commissioned Carausius to patrol the waters of northern Europe for buccaneers, mostly from Baltic and Scandinavian regions. Based in Gesoriacum (Boulogne), ..the ears of Rome that not only was he apprehending these nascent Vikings, but was appropriating their stolen goods. "
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#9
Hi John,

I like the energy you are pooring into this hypothesis, you remind me of myself at a younger age, trying to sell a theory to my professor Irish and Celtic languages. I hope you never lose that enthusiasm, but I also hope you learn something along the way. Unfortunately, you jump from assumption to assumption.

Quote: ON bálkr or bólkr m.‘vedvarende Uveir’; veðra-bálkr ‘Uveirsafsnit, Uveirsperiode, Uveir, Storme,
( unrelenting, incessant rain ).
If you quote a source, please quote it correctly. the article clearly says:
ON balkr, bǫlkr m. 'partition, section' < *balku- < *balk(k)uns m. ‘beam’ < *bholǵh-n-n ̥́s (acc. pl.).
The existance of IR 'bailc (downpour) is only hypothetically borrowed from Old Norse, but "There is some vague semantic common ground, but the relationship between these words is far from straightforward."
In short, ON 'balkr' does not mean 'storms/downpoor'.


Quote: The fixed day 1st May is Beltane. So : "bright"-"fixed" "rain"-"producing".
John, the 'rain-producing' is not attested anywhere.


Quote: the word bailc would have traditional significance if attached to Bel at any point in history.
Absolutely not. There is no connection in any way.


Quote: "Though currently a part of Spain, throughout history the Balearic Islands have ... perhaps the islands were sacred to the god Baal and the resemblance to the ..."
Evidently, Baals were lingering on, probably more so in dangerous sea-faring conditions ( The British, Dutch, US and Russian Navy keep the Neptune rituals crossing the Equator).
Anything about the Christian church in Spain and silly rituals from sailors tells you NOTHING about supposed carthaginians founding completely unattested Baal-related religious societies in Gaul.
You need evidence of any of the parts of your hypothesis before you can even contemplte writing "Evidently, Baals were lingering on"...


Quote: "Traders from Massalia ventured into France on the Rivers Durance and Rhône, and established overland trade routes to Switzerland and Burgundy, and as far north as the Baltic Sea. "
I don't know who wrote that but the statement is incorrect: there is no evidence that the traders from Massilia themselves ever went to the Baltic, only that they were part of a trading network between the Baltic and many other places in Southern Europe. Nothing strange, that, and certainly nothing that supports your conclusions. Trade existed. But you seem to think that you Massilian tradesmen were fervent baal-preachers who spread their religion to Nothern Europe..


Quote: Maybe they bought products in Gauls' ports, got employment in the off-season on Seine river tin barges or hijacked a cargo ship to take home to the family on Friday. Sailors share a sea culture and no passports were needed between Norway and ....south India?
You are making this up as you go along. Any evidence of this, even one small bit?
Perhaps the Vikings lived in Tibet. Perhaps the Romans had villas in California. Perhaps the Chinese raided the Noth Sea coast. It's all possible.


Quote: The inscription by a north African at Hadrian's Wall about a Syrian goddess and the Roman mish-mash of ethnic troops probably made it hard to avoid hearing about such things as Baal.
The fact that Syrians were stationed in Scotland, or Frisians in North Africa, or whatever soldiers in whatever region, does not mean that this "made it hard to avoid hearing about such things as Baal". So many soldiers served on the Wall, so many served their own gods, all married British women and their origins faded with the next generations. Who even says that these Syrians worshipped Baal?


Quote:"Almost 800 of these coins were minted [..] ..the ears of Rome that not only was he apprehending these nascent Vikings, but was appropriating their stolen goods. "
I am dreading to ask this but.. what are you trying to say with this quote?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#10
I quoted p 21, my ref, correctly. You misunderstand p 20 and ignore what you copied:
ON bálkr or bólkr m.‘vedvarende Uveir’; veðra-bálkr ‘Uveirsafsnit, Uveirsperiode, Uveir, Storme,.

A bhealtuiin bhailceach : "May. causing floods." A Gaelic Dictionary, In Two Parts: I. Gaelic And English. II. English And ...
By Robert Archibald Armstrong
mhaioneach " wealth-producing"
bhainneach "milk-producing".

"Anything about the Christian church in Spain and silly rituals from sailors tells you NOTHING about supposed carthaginians founding completely unattested Baal-related religious societies in Gaul. "
It's the lack of church power in Spain that is my point. Saying the Neptune ritual is silly misses my point. A "religious society in Gaul" is contrary to my words.

" But you seem to think that you Massilian tradesmen were fervent baal-preachers who spread their religion to Nothern Europe.."
That is contrary to the meaning of the quote and my words.

I had hoped for rationality but your condescension and miscomprehension don't allow further discussion.
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#11
Quote:Opportunists in the piracy business... got employment in the off-season... patrol the waters of northern Europe for buccaneers...

As Robert mentioned above, the Chauci (and Franks, and Saxons, Frisians etc) were not 'pirates' in the 17th-18th century way. They were traditional Germanic coastal raiders, operating as Germanic warrior bands had done for centuries, possibly with the greater reach given them (if we follow John Haywood in Dark Age Naval Power) by the adoption of the sail. So no need for them to get 'off season' jobs, or hang around the ports of Roman Gaul.


Quote:Evidently, Baals were lingering on

Ah, but that would involve evidence! ;-)

What's your last dateable reference to a god called Ba'al?
Nathan Ross
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#12
Nathan
Belgae and Veneti had large ships and smaller ones when J Caesar specified it. People didn't have trade union demarcation and possibly ( no dates, inscriptions or newspapers) sailors moved between shipping roles. Patently, there is a maritime culture in maritime locations. There are numerous ways for Germanic-Gaulish sailor contact.
If there was a Baal temple in Calais in 327AD I wouldn't be inquiring into orthodox history.
I'm posting this in a hope of comments on Roman interchange of cultures.
I'm surprised.
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#13
Quote:I had hoped for rationality but your condescension and miscomprehension don't allow further discussion.
In my opinion that's not the reason why further discussion is irrelevant - my inquieries about evidence were only answered by more assumptions. But it was interesting nontheless.

Quote:I'm posting this in a hope of comments on Roman interchange of cultures.
I'm surprised.
I'm not. Discussions here are usually accompanied by more substance, and assuming that this or that happened might be fun but it won't get you past a certain point.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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