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Roman boots early 3rd century
#16
Fratre Flavie,<br>
your 'Barbarian-stamp' just looks great !<br>
We would not even have any trouble with the symmetry, since a III looks alike from both sides.<br>
Yes, I'd be very happy to receive additional information.<br>
<br>
Uwe tried to use the email adress I posted earlier on (see above), but it didn't work (why ????). Try<br>
<br>
[email protected] <br>
<br>
if it still doesn't work, just tell me, and you get my private adress.<br>
<br>
To everybody else (Paul, Uwe, Aitor, Scythius, etc.),<br>
I didn't get anything from Carol van Driel yet, but I wrote her only yesterday and if she is only half as occupied as my boss, an answer would take quite some time.<br>
I managed to contact Graham Sumner, though ! He wants to post close ups of Mark Beaby's boots here on RAT, and he is in no way reluctant to share what he knows. So we can expect more, soon.<br>
<br>
Chairete !<br>
<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/RATstuff/GladiatorFHRAT.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i></i>
Florian Himmler (not related!)
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#17
Hi,<br>
I've finally send via e-mail Carol's pattern for the Third century boot.<br>
I've forgotten to tell you that the detached pieces are reinforcements (external, I guess) The bif one goes at the heel and the little one at the toe. There were also reinforcement strips running along the line of eyelets, the stitching line for them is clearly visible.<br>
Valete<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#18
Thank you Aitor for the e-mail.<br>
<br>
Is there evidence that the outer sole leather was stitched as well as hob nailed onto the inner sole leather? Mark Beaby's reproduction shows this.<br>
<br>
Medieval shoes used a method called tunnel stitching in which the needle did not go all the way through the outer sole leather. Instead it would pierce the top of the sole leather and curve in and out through the top layers of the thick sole leather. Using this method to sew the sole leather to the inner sole stops the thread from being exposed to the ground. Hob nails would protect the thread from being broken if the stitching goes all the way though as shown in the photo of M Beaby's but even hob nails break and fall out.<br>
<br>
I would like to know if the photo is showing an actual reconstruction or a modern method of shoe making in regards to the sole. Stitching all the way though the sole leather is much easier than creating little tunnel stitches and as I am just about to start making some new boots I would find it interesting to incorporate this in the design. I also know that I can get hobnails like the ones in the photo.<br>
<br>
The picture sent by Aitor has the same constuction of a shoe I was lucky enough to examine while walking into the finds room at the Arbeia fort some years ago (sent from another site). The triangle goes to the heal externaly, the toe cap goes externaly to the front, the small rectangle strip goes to the heal inside to create a small heal cup - gives extra support to the heal area. There is the outer sole leather, the inner sole leather and the mid sole leather. The mid sole leather is made up of two parts. A front part and a heal part. They are laced together via the inner sole leather. The inner sole leather has two slits in the center for the lace or thong to go through. Since I started making shoes this way I find them more comfortable. <p></p><i></i>
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#19
Paul, your remarks on the shoe at the South Shields finds room are really interesting! I'd wish I could have examined such shoe by myself.<br>
Now I'm starting to understand the strange depiction of the mid-sole on Carol's drawing. I didn't understand where did that broken thong come from!<br>
Maybe somebody could be able to put here the drawing, so we all could discuss the details here.<br>
Accuracy can only be claimed by somebody who has worked on the original items or good photos and drawings. The boots the my fellow-companions are wearing are full of shortcuts and simplifications. Anyway, we don't claim that they are exact replicas (my campagi are a different matter !)<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#20
Salvete everybody !<br>
<br>
Sorry I didn't write anything for a couple of days, but I was VERY busy !<br>
Many thanks for Uwe, the image should appear now where it should appear <br>
<br>
Also thanks to Aitor, the image made by Carol van Driel-Murray looks quite good, and your instructions on the inner sole are IMPORTANT !<br>
I tried to contact Carol herself, she even sent an answer - but it contained nothing more than my original message (?).<br>
<br>
Did anybody ever buy boots or shoes from Sarah Juniper ?<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
Flavius Promotus<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuspromotus@romanarmytalk>FLAVIUS PROMOTUS</A> at: 2/2/04 7:40 am<br></i>
Florian Himmler (not related!)
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#21
Salvete !<br>
<br>
Graham Sumner has sent me several good images of Mark Beaby's boots. I can pass them on to everyone who is interested.<br>
My adress<br>
<br>
[email protected] <br>
<br>
seems to be operational.<br>
<br>
I have managed to contact Mark Beaby, and he gave a me a description of his products:<br>
<br>
"At the time we made the boots Graeme said he wanted them to be as tough as possible and be capable of all the things the<br>
original examples would have done. I therefore used 3 -4 mm thick, oil dressed, vegetable-tanned, cowhide for the uppers, and three layers of 5mm thick oak-bark tanned cow-hide for the soles. The uppers were "faced" on the inside with 2mm thick calf-skin to re-inforce all the lace holes, and the heels were stiffened (lined) with 3mm cow-hide. Although the design of the Dura Europa boot calls for a "lasted" construction, the soles are all secured with long iron pins (20mm). The bottom sole (the layer you walk on) also has additional "hob-nails" hammered into it. We have made alot of<br>
military boots from many different historical periods and I can honestly say that these were some of the strongest constructions of all of them!"<br>
<br>
My comment: sounds rahter like high-quality leather armour than footwear !<br>
Although Mark's boots seem to be more than reliable, I don't know if I will be able to invest 300 British Pounds<br>
<br>
Sarah Juniper's boots are a little cheaper, but she seems to have been buried under an avalanche of orders... <p></p><i></i>
Florian Himmler (not related!)
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#22
I am about to make my own pair of 3rd C boots, and the prospect is a little intimidating for me. Leatherwork is a big unknown, I'm learning something new everytime I try a new piece of kit. Luckily Paul and I are members of the same unit Cohors Quinta Gallorum, and he has given me some great tips on making my own 3rd C boots.<br>
<br>
But the final design, and the work itself, has to be mine. I'm working essentially from a pair of comfortable old workboots I wore habitually for the last 3 years. Cut up and opened out, my template is based on those. My aim is to come up with a pair as good as the Mark Beaby boots on pg. 36 of Osprey's Roman Military Clothing (2). A dream of course ... my eye is drawn to the fact that I see stichin on the inner edge of the ankle, and what looks to be a black inner fabric on that ankle. I've not seen that in any of my patterns ... <p>Paul Elliott<br>
<br>
<strong>Heroes of Delphi</strong> - Classical Greece gone D20<br>
<strong>Zenobia</strong> - Fantasy RPG in the Eastern Roman Empire<br>
<strong>Warlords of Alexander</strong> - Kingdoms in conflict for the ruins of Alexander's Empire<br>
<br>
www.geocities.com/mithrapolis/games.html</p><i></i>
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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#23
They can have extra stitch holes around the eyelets to sew on extra soft leather to re enforce the lace holes. I would recomend doing that if the leather to be used is thin.<br>
<br>
I have done some futher research on sole leather. I have came across a few examples of small hobnails used in conjuction with larger ones as used by Mark Beaby. And examples of both tunnel stitching and through stitching of the outer sole. <p></p><i></i>
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#24
Ave frater Promotus,<br>
I have a friend in California who makes wonderful Roman boots and documents the process step-by-step. His name is Jared Fleury, and you can view his web site at: [url=http://www.florentius.com/" target="top]www.florentius.com/[/url]<br>
Check him out! <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
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#25
I almost forgot, here is a picture of my own boots, based on my interpretation of a boot found at Vindolanda.<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/LuciusEquipmentSmall.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
You can also see more photos of them on my web site at:<br>
[url=http://www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com" target="top]www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com[/url]<br>
By the way, my boots are incomplete in this photo, I still have to nail the hobnails in the soles. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/25/05 3:50 am<br></i>
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
Reply
#26
Dear Lucius Aurelius,<br>
<br>
thank you for the tip, but I already know Florentius<br>
<br>
[To Florentius: sorry for not writing for some time, but I'm pretty busy at the moment ]<br>
<br>
Your shoes look very nice (Saalburg 199 ?), and I wish you a lot of success with the nailing pattern.<br>
Although I know how to replace nails, making a complete pair of boots is something which I am still not able to do - but I'll visit an archaeologist in Switzerland in a couple of weeks for some "training sessions". She made (nearly) all the boots for our group; you can take a look at them if you go to www.legion-regensburg.de ("vorlaeufige Version"), then to "Schuhwerk" (footwear).<br>
<br>
best wishes,<br>
Flauius <p></p><i></i>
Florian Himmler (not related!)
Reply
#27
Hi Flavius,<br>
I'm glad you found Florentius' site. He makes very beautiful boots, I think. I spoke to him via e-mail the other day, and he told me that he had already talked to you and that this is an old thread, but I didn't realize how old it was. Would you be willing to show me the photograph of the gentleman's boots that you mentioned in one of your previous posts? I would love to see them. I make footwear, too, but I mainly just do it for myself, and I'm not as good at teaching the process as Florentius is. I know HOW to do it, I'm just not good at explaining it or teaching it to others. I wish I could, though.<br>
Thank you for the compliment on my boots. Did you say they resemble boots found at the Saalburg?<br>
Anyway, I just wanted to help. Take care, and good luck with your boots! <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/26/05 11:41 pm<br></i>
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
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