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01-21-2005, 08:37 PM

Just finished a book on Leg XIIII GMV (Stephen Dando-Collins- a fun work of "faction" based on historical sources). 
He talks about legionaries re-enlisting and the "evocati"- militia corps of retired legionaries, marching behind their old standards. I'd never heard of these- does anyone have any more info? 
If they existed, it might help those re-enactors who are a little (ahem) older? 
 
Cheers 
 
Paulus

L C Cinna · 01-22-2005, 12:29 AM

I'm not sure but I think I remember Caesar and Pompeius using evocatiat Pharsalos (I might be wrong though, would have to look it up)

TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX · 01-22-2005, 04:52 AM

I have heard of this especially in the republic, also there is record of optios and centurions on active duty into thier late 70s

L C Cinna · 01-22-2005, 11:20 AM

Yes like some of the troops sent to Macedonia after the punic wars.

John M McDermott · 01-22-2005, 06:43 PM

Collins' book advances some interesting propositions. It has been reviewed elsewhere on the RAT board with bad reviews. I found it interesting. No one else has attempted to do a unit history on a Roman Legion. 
 
The mass enlistment notion makes some sense. Union regiments in the civil war followed this pattern. The result was units of high quality, but small numbers. 
 
I wish there was a more scholarly discussion of this idea other than to just say Dando doesn't know what he is talking about.

rusty myers · 01-22-2005, 10:28 PM

Perhaps if Dando cited a source, or if other glaring mistakes such as confusing Leg VI's in his first book did not pepper this one as well... good fiction I think, but without sourcing, it takes a lot of gall to say it is the "Definitive histories of the legions of Ancient Rome" (from the dust jacket itself.) Also the "True Story of Rome's remarkable Fourteenth Legion". Call it historical fiction, like Pressfield's Gates of fire, but he seems to want to call it definitive and stuff, something that no true scholar would do without citing a single source. A good read, if taken with a grain of salt, but it should not be sold as the "definitive" anything. On this basis, "Gladiator" could claim to be the "true" story of the death of commodus... Rusty Myers 
www.SouloftheWarrior.com Commander, Legio VI FFC 
www.LEGVI.com

John M McDermott · 01-22-2005, 11:20 PM

Dando sites sources, but alas, not paragraph by paragraph. Someone should contact him and give him a chance to defend himself. Anyone tried?

rusty myers · 01-23-2005, 01:40 AM

a list of "sources" is at the end... not quite the sourcing I am used to when I refer to citing. In fact it reads like a list of stuff many of us have read... I believe there was supposed to be a reason they crammed all that English Lit Sourcing stuff on us in college... the courses where you failed if you left out a citation... 
 
I think in the first book he said he left it out so as not to confuse simple minded readers or something, have to fidn it and check, but there are numerous glaring errors... I think the earlier posts on this cover very fully. 
 
Would be great for him to login, he fleshes out a good tale... Rusty Myers 
www.SouloftheWarrior.com Commander, Legio VI FFC 
www.LEGVI.com

Carlton Bach · 01-23-2005, 07:40 PM

I recall there being some indication of two types of service in the early Principate legions: sub aquila and sub vexillum. The latter was interpreted as service beyond the regular term, possibly in some kind of militia formation or in noncombat roles. Unfortunately I can't source them right now - something I read. I'll try and recheck. 
 
Personally, I find it doubtful as anything other than an emergency measure (though the recruitment problems of Augustus later years might be construed as an emergency). After 20 years in the legions - or even 16 - I doubt there would have been much good work to be had from an unwilling reservist looking forward to marriage, and a willing volunteer could simply have been kept on, I guess. At least there is evidence of very long service terms and I have never found any indication that the Romans practised mandatory retirement beyond the missio causaria. 
 
Volker

***Praefectusclassis*** · 01-23-2005, 07:52 PM

Actually, it's true, after 20 years the troops were liable for service as evocati for 5 more years. That was for more than emergencies only. Lucius Sertorius Firmus (mid 1st C AD) was curator veteranorum: commander of the veterans. Greets 
 
Jasper

01-24-2005, 09:05 PM

Jasper, 
 
After a bit of digging, I cam across this tombstone (plus commentary), found in Spain. I haven't found the Latin yet. I can't see it the image base? 
 
"Marcus Caesius Verus, son of Marcus, of the Pollia tribe, from Pollentia,(1) centurion of the 5th legion Macedonica.(2) He served in the 9th praetorian cohort for 16 years during which he was made trumpeter and later officer in charge of the military prison. He served a further 7 years as reservist.(3) He was then made centurion in the 5th legion Macedonica legion and was the 6th ranking centurion in his cohort.(4) He served as a regular soldier for 16 years, as reservist for seven and as centurion for four. He served a total of 27 years and lived forty-one. Marcus Caesius Atimetus and Marcus Caesius Limen, his freedmen and heirs,(5) took the responsibility of constructing this according to the wishes expressed in his will. 
 
Notes 
 
(1) A town in Spain, Verus' birthplace. Verus' burial and inscription, however, were in Pontus et Bithynia. A possible reason for the odd location of the inscription is that the legion with which Verus was centurion at the time of his death, the 5th Macedonica, was stationed in Pontus et Bithynia for part of the later first century (where it participated in the quelling of a revolt in Judea) before it was transferred to Moesia in the reign of Vespasian. 
 
(2) Marcus lists his most senior position first before returning to the beginning of his career. 
 
(3) Verus continued to serve as an evocatus (reservist) in the hopes of eventually being given the rank of centurion. Because the praetorian term of service was the shortest in the Roman army, most evocati came from the praetorians. 
 
(4) There were six centuries per cohort (five in the first cohort). The sixth was the most junior. 
 
(5) It would appear that Verus died without a wife. His heirs were his freedmen, both of which bear his praenomen and nomen (Marcus Caesius)."

***Praefectusclassis*** · 01-24-2005, 09:17 PM

Hi Paulus, 
That's only normal. Only tombstones with depictions of the deceased or his equipment on it are in the imagebase. We'd never be finished if we did all roman military tombstones. Greets 
 
Jasper

01-24-2005, 10:47 PM

Jasper and the problem is?????????? 
 
 
<img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">

***Praefectusclassis*** · 01-25-2005, 06:24 AM

Hey Mark, if you want to give me all photos of any military tombstone you have, please feel free Greets 
 
Jasper

petrinus · 07-23-2006, 06:42 PM

yes ive heard of this, though under a different nomenclature if i remember correctly, wikpedia was where i came across it i think, when i was studying up on my ancestral ties to the Legio II Adiutrix Pia Fidelis of misenum, they referenced three catagories and ranks within the legion elder veteran soldiers of 20+ years, the middle aged prime and seasoned soldiers, and then what were essentialy the green un proven and adolescent :? now im gonna have to go look all this up again

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