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Women, and Roman Military Re-enactment
#1
Avete,<br>
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being a woman myself, and a Romam military fan, I would like to open a thread, the purpose of which is to share your opinions regarding women enlisting to Roman re-enactment groups as soldiers. The archaeological evidence of "Woman Legionnaries" is scarce, or literally - nonexistent. Would a female recruit, in your eyes, defile the reputation of the re-enactment group? <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=juliadomna@romanarmytalk>Julia Domna</A> at: 1/8/05 12:59 am<br></i>
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#2
the legs... you know... the legs <p>---------------<br>
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<img src="http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/bilder/bireme-21-kl.jpg"/><br>
biremis</p><i></i>
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#3
HA! I never thought about the legs before! Hehehe.<br>
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This topic has been discussed before.<br>
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I feel, If the woman is willing and eager to haul the gear and wear armor all day long and not whine about it (or else we'll start whining too and nothing'll get done ), if she can do the research and have good, accurate kit, and can deal with the public, if she can Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk, I don't think I would have much of a problem with it. I think the woman would just have to be prepared to explain why she's doing it, however she got into reenacting a Roman Legionary.<br>
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I figure whoever is willing to put on armor and do it all, gleefully and geekily, it comes down to the more the merrier.<br>
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We're here to have fun and to educate the public, to get them excited about history. So that means we need as many people, male and female, as possible together to make that impression happen. <p>Titus Vulpius Dominicus ~ Your Friendly Neighborhood Roman Dude.<br>
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Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re (Soft in Manner, Strong in Deed)<br>
<br>
www.higgins.org <br>
www.higginssword.org </p><i></i>
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#4
I agree with what Andy said about the armor. She would also have to not mind being dirty and be able to deal with a bunch of guys who swear, drink and in general act like the barbarians we are supposed to be fighting. Simply put she'd have to be "one of the guys."<br>
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I also think that she should at least try to look like a man, I.E. either cutting her hair short or hiding it, women in men's roles who flagrantly look like women is one of my pet peeves in American Civil War reenacting. This would be the one place where a woman who is "well indowed" is at a disadvantage.<br>
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As for the legs a pair of trousers and legwraps would cover that right up. Or not shaving a month in advance of each event <p></p><i></i>
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#5
Yes, I'm sure this has been discussed before. Nethertheless ...<br>
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I do a late Roman soldier, and I only take part in 'arena' displays. Therefore, I'm seen from a distance, and I know darn well that people can't tell unless they're looking out for girlies. I had a sceptical (female) friend who didn't know there was a female re-enacting an early Imperial legionary at one show, until I pointed her out! We weren't that far away from her either.<br>
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I (and the other women in my group) always wear helmets. I wear a deliberately baggy tunic to hide my chest, even though I'm not even that well endowed. Late Romans tend to wear trousers - in Britannia at least, where the weather's not so good - so no problem there.<br>
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Closer up is not so good, and I avoid doing any face-to-face talks otherwise you only end up talking about women in the Roman period and reenactment, rather than about the military.<br>
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After the display, I normally change back into women's clothes, unless there's only a short time till the next display. Perhaps because my group also has a strong emphasis on living history, there's no particular need for me to put up with being 'one of the lads' and all that appears to entail<br>
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So I reckon that arena displays are no problem at all, and am neutral on close-up talking; there are arguments for and against. It probably depends on the group; there are varying methods of presentation. <p></p><i></i>
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#6
Salve, frater<br>
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I agree with Andy, if a woman can pull it off, more power to her. Proof of this occurred at Nashville, there was a woman there portraying a male legionnaire. She did very well, as I said in a previous thread, the only way I knew that she was a she was when she opened her mouth. <p></p><i></i>
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#7
Hi, and thanks for your input everyone!<br>
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I read a "female" thread last night, which in the end got off the right track, discussing pottery (I clicked on the link and beheld the goods myself, they are very good looking!). I assume it was that thread you were referring to (can't seem to be able to find it any longer)?<br>
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I am aware of that a female dressed up as a soldier, and acting like her male counterparts would cause confusion amongst the audience, perhaps that would make an author of history books for children think that what he has seen during the display provides enough evidence to insert a line or two about female soldiers in the next edition. <br>
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So, in my opinion, if a female soldier re-enactor comes to talk face-to-face with someone, it is important to stress that there is virtually no evidence of Roman women and that the very reason as to why she wants to do this is that she prefers the military aspects to those of the civilian life.<br>
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Like Matthew Amt pointed out in the earlier thread, <em>this is a hobby, and as long as you are devoted to it, go for it</em>. I couldn't agree less. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=juliadomna@romanarmytalk>Julia Domna</A> at: 1/8/05 6:39 pm<br></i>
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#8
Well, I know that historically speaking, there is little or no evidence to support women in the military, but from my own reenacting standpoint, I would have no problems at all with it, as long as the requirements as laid out in the previous messages were met. It is always good to have other enthusiasts join with us, whether male or female. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
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#9
I too would have little problem with women reenacting mens roles as long as they arent to obvious, there was also some celtic tradition of warrior women if the person wanted to do celtic instead. <p></p><i></i>
aka., John Shook
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#10
I agree with Matt's point, and have to add in that in all my school demos the girls are just as interested as the boys. They try on armor, question everything, and hate to see the demo end. They ponder the idea that women weren't in the military, but doesn't seem to deter the interest. In fact, since I've been doing it in some places for several years, it's usually the girls who look forward to the next visit.<br>
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None of us are Roman soldiers, and we never will be. But we can get people enthusiastic about history. Turning women (or anyone) off is not what we should be about.<br>
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My wife was pretty ambivalent about this whole hobby when I got started, but one day she saw the sun shining off our armor on one of Matt's parades, and got so inspired to illustrate women's everyday life she designed Asellina's caupona.<br>
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In a previous iteration of this thread (two years ago now?) I ended up putting out a standing invitation to Jenny Cline to join Legio XX, and have a set of armor put aside for her. Can't recall her shoe size at the moment but she did tell me once. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo<br>
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</p><i></i>
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#11
I haven't come across any groups, when speaking to the public, actively trying to put women off finding out about the Romans.<br>
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However, just in case there is someone reading this thread thinking that re-enactment people are all equitable types, there are Roman groups who won't allow women to portray soldiers. I believe that the woman who was portaying an early Roman Empire Legionary (who I mentioned in a previous email) had a lot of trouble finding a group which would accept her.<br>
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Also, recently I met a re-enactment chap who reckoned that he didn't approve of women portraying soldiers and that "the line really needed to be drawn somewhere" Since he was talking to two women, one of whom was dressed in soldier tunic at the time, he was either very brave or very stupid! The other woman later said to me she was close to thumping him; just as well I was standing between them The man was of a 'certain age' and I haven't heard younger men express his sort of attitude - either they wouldn't dare, or it doesn't even occur to them!<br>
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My group has always been stong on also showing daily life in the Late Roman period as a whole, so it's easy for women to fit in, even if they're not interested in military side of things; I wouldn't have joined otherwise. <p></p><i></i>
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#12
Some points were made from other posters that I was initially nervous about mentioning.<br>
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I do like the idea of using braccae/trousers to cover female legs, if that's what is needed....Cleverly simple even.<br>
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I agree that I also dissaprove of some women who will dress up [in armor] but who make it obvious that they are female (hair, even makeup)...So I'd hope that without trying to sound negative here, that women who want to do this but will inevitably come into close distance with audience, could she use make-up instead to "hide" her feminine features? (just a suggestion)<br>
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As is currently being discussed, women may or may not have served in the Legions...So my concern, if it's any concern to have, is that "in the meantime" I think women should try to blend in with the men as best as they can.... You know what I mean?<br>
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I'm not surprised there are still people out there who refuse to allow women in thier groups because they feel it's a men-only insitution. It's dissapointing, but I'm hopeful that women who do want to get into this are able to find a group near them (or even possibly starting a group?) that will welcome and encourage them to help enrich our hobby.<br>
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As I said before, have fun, but just be prepared as well. Sometimes you have to beat the public over the head with the Clue-by-Four. <p></p><i></i>
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#13
I haven't come across any women portraying soldiers and wearing make up at the same time. Certainly, the women in my group don't. I don't wear make up ever, as I'm allergic, so won'tever be making myself up to look specifically like a chap. Any time I've seen make up used like that, it looks naff and obvious, *especially* close up. Better not to draw attention in the first place.<br>
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Also, in my group, we wear always helmets, with cheekguards, which pretty much bury the face and the hair. As for long hair showing, actually I've seen plenty of chaps with long hair poking out from under helms! It must be all short back and sides in your area, but it isn't where I come from! I plait mine back, stick it down the back of my tunic, then wrap a scarf round my neck as well which further aids hiding, though there is a neckguard anyway. Any female who is remotely serious about being a soldier will do their best to hide their female features. But I always make a point of wearing bright red nail varnish <p></p><i></i>
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#14
There's always this option.<br>
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www.legionsix.org/sassanian1.jpg<br>
ALways one of my favorite impressions from Leg VI<br>
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The Sassanid Archer With full helmet<br>
The Male/Female question would never come up.<br>
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<p></p><i></i>
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#15
Greetings,<br>
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I come from a long experience with Civil War Re-enacting and have pretty much the same experiences as most of the others who have contributed to this thread. In Civil War re-enactments, we served alonside a unit that we suspected had a female in their ranks. I say suspected because you couldn't be certain. If she was a female, she blended with the men very well. Like I said, I'm pretty certain. Maybe.<br>
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Under these circumstances, I have no problems with a female participating in the military aspects of the Roman world.<br>
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However, there were also units that had female re-enactors who made no effort at all to hide their feminine attributes and who were merely an aggravation for other re-enactors and a distraction for the audience. Historically there were documented incidents where women served throughout the Civil War acting as men and were never detected (by the officers anyway). So, if a woman wants to look and act like a man and make an effort to fit in (as opposed to stand out), I have no problems with female Roman Legionaries. I just don't think most women could pull it off.<br>
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Vis Superavi Ignarum <p></p><i></i>
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