Siren Call of Late Antiquity –Beginner\'s Questions

[Lupianus]

Hi everyone,

A couple of years ago I registered on this august forum due to my involvement in Roman reenactment, which focussed on the 'classical' period of the 2nd century AD. Thence my interests have shifted to the 4th century AD, and now I'm back with a ton of questions. I do apologise if any of these have been answered already or even more than once – the last couple of weeks I spent browsing the web and RAT, but I still might have missed a lot.

I'm no use at handicraft, but I'm willing to give it a try with some (very!) basic and cheap stuff. For the most part, though, I will need to buy stuff. My budget is limited, yet I'm not in a hurry, and I've learnt the hard way not to fall for impulse purchases.

A western, regular military look is my goal. But I want to begin with clothing. No armour, no weaponry. However, where to start? There are a number of manicata tunics available from different sellers on the web. But which one is best or at least good enough for the first couple of seasons?
As I've yet to settle on a certain time frame, could I perhaps for the earlier 4th century (say, Tetrarchy & Constantine) get away with a 3rd century tunic as well? Only reason would be that at a comparable quality level the earlier ones are much cheaper.
Also, which material is best? I've seen a few people clad in linen manicata tunics while others seem to prefer wool (combined with linen underwear, I guess).

Next, the trousers. I've seen many reenactors use 'baggy' Thorsberg styles, but I would prefer a relatively tight fit. If that's not too out of place, are there any patterns available on the web or in print?

The same goes for the pileus pannonicus. Read up on a number of discussions on materials used, but I'm still not sure how to actually make one. Since this is an item I'm willing to test my sewing skills on, any help is really appreciated.

Lastly, the cloak. A sagum seems preferable, but if there's any advice which material (what kind of wool), colour (yellow tones? red tones? natural colours?) and shape (rectangular? fringes?) works and possibly looks best, please forward it to me.

Surely, many more questions will arise in the process, but that's it for now. Thanks for any help in advance.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Hi Lupianus,

It's important to know where you live so I can tell you which suppliers are best.

A historically accurate Tunica Manicata is rather expensive. The Deepeeka ones aren't acceptable, which is what most websites sell. The cheapest, acceptable one comes from Al-Hamdd, which you can order through Soul of the Warrior if you live in the U.S.A. If you live in Europe, Robert Vermaat can probably help you.

However, although it'll run you about $270 USD total, I highly recommend you order the one from Medievaldesign. Their one with squares says "5th century" and the one with circles says "4th" but that doesn't actually matter, they were both in use from the late 3rd to late 6th centuries AD.

Their 3rd Century tunics are also more or less acceptable for Early 4th.

http://www.medievaldesign.com/eng-prodot..._chiave=33

As for trousers, Medievaldesign makes tight-fitting, tailored thorsberg trousers too, and they're just as expensive. I have a pair from La Wren's nest and the fit is nice and tight. They're very nice, although the waist is now large on me since I've lost weight. It's no matter since they're drawstring trousers.

http://www.lawrensnest.com/ez-catalog/X385623/18

Again, the fit is based on the measurements you give them, just like Medievaldesign.

La Wren's nest also sells a Pannonian Hat, although you can get a fancier one from Medievaldesign. If you want to make one, some heavy felted wool works great, although you can use fur as well.

As for socks, this place sells a set of Naalbinding socks based on a find from Egypt. They're the red ones with toes. But simpler socks will work too, which you can find at Armamentaria, SOTW, La Wren's Nest, etc.

http://reenactmentmarket.eu/en/oferty/808

I highly recommend Medievaldesign for the Boots, as they sell 4th century Calcei (Ramshaw-Pattern). However, I need to know exactly what time period you'd like to represent for Belt Fittings and Scabbard parts.

Finally, for cloaks, you can either get a standard rectangular sagum from SOTW, Armamentaria, etc, re-use a heavy wool military blanket, or you can get a fancy Late Roman Cloak from Medievaldesign (they have one with Decorations and a Fringed one).

http://legvi.tripod.com/sotw/
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/
http://www.armae.com/Zenglish/Main_english_page.htm

Tell me more and I can help you with Belt fittings. Deepeeka just made a Late Roman Sword which is good for more or less Mid 4th-Mid 5th Century too.

[Nathan Ross]

I've seen many reenactors use 'baggy' Thorsberg styles, but I would prefer a relatively tight fit.

All the original depictions I've seen of 3rd-4th C troops (from the arches of Galerius and Constantine to the Piazza Armerina mosaics and Luxor frescoes, to the few tombstones from the era) show very tight trousers or leggings - skintight, in fact, often with integral 'feet'. I'd aim for that if you can.

[Lupianus]

Hi Evan,

Many thanks for your reply. I'm in Germany.
I've ordered from Medievaldesign before and wasn't that happy with the clothing's fit and cut. I guess it's advisable to have some things made-to-measure; not an issue with a rather loose-fitting tunic but definitely with trousers. Therefore I'd prefer a pattern for these.

I've seen the Al-Hamdd tunics on photos. Not sure, though, how acceptable they are up close. I wouldn't want to replace the tunic after the first couple of seasons, so I'm prepared to invest a little bit more here.

Regarding the belt I'm after some particular designs (depending on final period, of course), made by an old hobby friend. No worries there yet. A sword is way down the list anyway.

EDIT: Hi Nathan, exactly my impression as well. I've got a Late Medieval garment, so I'm not afraid of tight-fitting trousers. :grin:

[Robert]

Christian Koepfer http://ckoepfer.de/Christian_Koepfer/Uber_mich.html is someone who may help you get good kit of that period. A really nice guy.

[Lupianus]

Thanks for the tip, Robert. Already got in touch with him beforehand, after I'd discovered the manicata on the AER webshop. This would arguably be the best choice, but due to its quality it's rather pricey, so I want to check all viable options.
Any advice is welcome! :-)

[Robert Vermaat]

Also, which material is best? I've seen a few people clad in linen manicata tunics while others seem to prefer wool (combined with linen underwear, I guess).

I have all kinds of tunics. Wool and linen by my own hand, linen from AER as well as al-Hammd, and wool by Medievaldesign. In my experience 'the best' is what you are using them for. The AER is indeed the best, although I had to shorthen it and the details did not reflect the price (many loose threads). However I it took me some years before I dared to wear armour (plus subarmalis) over it. I generally use the al-Hammd for that. the Medievaldesign is the 'luxury' tunic. All the commercial tunics are machine-sewn, including the decorations, so in that sense all are not 100% authentic at close range.

Next, the trousers. I've seen many reenactors use 'baggy' Thorsberg styles, but I would prefer a relatively tight fit. If that's not too out of place, are there any patterns available on the web or in print?

As already written below, the Thorsberg is nog baggy but quite tight-fitting. I have a woolen one from medievaldesign which I'm quite pleased with. Any shape issues can easily be corrected.

The same goes for the pileus pannonicus. Read up on a number of discussions on materials used, but I'm still not sure how to actually make one. Since this is an item I'm willing to test my sewing skills on, any help is really appreciated.

The best I've seen was made from astrachan 9sp?) wool, and it's not for sale anywhere. My wool version is from medievaldesign, and I've some felt and fur ones.

Lastly, the cloak. A sagum seems preferable, but if there's any advice which material (what kind of wool), colour (yellow tones? red tones? natural colours?) and shape (rectangular? fringes?) works and possibly looks best, please forward it to me.

A simple sagum for the soldier would be rectangular (not too short!) and yellowish-brown. fringes can be added, even decorations if you go for the luxurious versions. most people have one that's too light though (I did myself for years) because it's quite a burden. But it's meant to keep you dry in the rain and warm in winter.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The best I've seen was made from astrachan (sp?) wool, and it's not for sale anywhere. My wool version is from medievaldesign, and I've some felt and fur ones.

Geez, talk about historically accurate. That's exactly what most steppe hats are made of.

Technically it's "Astrakhan."

[Crispvs]

If Astrakhan wool is very tightly curled and clings close to the skin, creating a rather beautiful pattern of short tessellating spirals, then I have seen Pannonian caps made of this on sale a couple of years ago. I didn't buy one (although I was tempted) and I don't recall who was selling them, but I seem to recall both Peronis (Adrian Wink of Armamentaria) and Caballo (Paul Browne) [both RAT members] buying them and one of them might be able to tell you who was selling them.

Pannonian caps are extremely simple to make yourself, as (in their most basic form) they consist of just a length of material long enough to go around your head and a round circle whose circumference is about the same as that length. My own Pannonian cap is made from rabbit fur, and although quite close fitting (and actually the same shape and size as the one Robert wears in his profile picture), ends up resembling a fur hat my mother used to wear, thanks to the length of the hair in the fur, just so you can compare a fur one with a woollen one. My tunic is copied from one which was auctioned at Christie's a few years ago. Both can be seen here (where for some reason I look shorter in first century mode than I do in fourth century mode [maybe it's just that Byron is short and the camera crew were tall]):
https://picasaweb.google.com/10168561909...0126832178


Crispvs