Thank you for the reference to Mike Bishop's paper on the Camomile Street soldier. In fact I had already read it and no I don't have any doubts about it. What I am getting at is how we interpret what we see there.
"There may indeed have been other uses for these fasteners but it needs yet other more realistic evidence to confirm this did happen but not to just assume sword suspension."
I have never once suggested that they were only used for attaching swords. You are the only one who has tried to argue so far that they only had a single purpose, namely as clothing fasteners. Please read my posts properly before replying.
"Then your suggestion to assume that the fastening of a paenula could have been done by a lace or toggle passing through the metal part of a button fastener does not make much sense whatever."
Actually, it does make perfect sense if you look at it with an open mind, which you are not doing. Please don't insult my and your own intelligence with statements like this.
"Then the Idria Burial evidence I do not think shows much about a sword suspension at all just as much as these two discs you refer to on either side of a scabbard for there is no evidence of these being buttons for we only see the front side of them."
Perhaps you should take that particular point up with Dr Cristian Miks. Please note though, that you are also only seeing the fronts of the buttons on the Camomile Street soldier and cannot see any better than the rest of us what is going on behind the material.
Incidentally, I am still waiting with baited breath for your photograph of an original fastener still attached to the remains of a garment.
I wonder too if Mike Bishop, who I am sure has been watching this tiresome spat with some amusement, might like to make some sage comment.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Crispvs.
With regard to my statement about a lace or toggle beneath the paenula I found to be a very strange way to consider to use a button type fastener in this manner from the point of view why would such toggles or indeed such laces be done from under and inside of a garment, and how quickly could they be done up or released for it appears to me to be a duplication that is not needed where a simple loop over the button is all it needs.
Then where you might be waiting with baited breath for a picture of a button fastener still sewn to its piece of material I to am waiting to see a picture of a sword suspended from such a button type fastener, apart from that shown by Cesar that looks very good but no provenance.
Quote:Attached is my own reconstruction of the Camomile cloak with the two types of fastener.
Why did you - or rather the Romans - not fasten the button further to the right onto the cloak so that it could be better closed? It is not rocket science.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
Quote:I don't know why everyone's hating on the toggles. It seems to be a perfectly low-tech solution, especially for in-the-field repairs when you don't have access to fancy brass closures. Wood rots, so I'm not surprised there's no hard find to preset as empirical proof. I get the problem with the button-hole however, so I went with leather loops (Cut from one piece) offset from the edge to get them to close as tightly as possible. In hindsight I suppose i could have sewn them on the inside instead of the outside, however I think that would cause the closure edges to 'tent' and not look right...
[attachment=12074]paenula.jpg[/attachment]
Looks good, but are you sure that the Roman used toggles?
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
Many are "button" and loop fastenings and some "bar" and loop which may be associated with a keyhole type strap attachment....
Plenty of Brians example here as well....
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Mike.
Thank you for your input about the toggle that is at the point where the soldiers garment separates for earlier I incorrectly took it to be yet another button fastener, just a thought but one has to wonder if this might not have been such a field repair to the fastening of the garment for it does not look to be an elaborate cast model but a possible wood one.
Quote:one has to wonder if this might not have been such a field repair to the fastening of the garment for it does not look to be an elaborate cast model but a possible wood one.
It seems highly unlikely that a sculptor would include a field repair in a monumental sculpture. However, my question would be, 'Why are there two types of fastening on one garment,both seeming to do the same job?'
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
I do think that the picture shown by Mike Bishop does show that the sculptor did indeed create this figure showing these different type of fastenings and the reason for the difference could well have been the reason I have given, in fact the question you pose about the sculptor has in fact been referred to in papers written on this subject.
One thing I think is certain, its not a button/bar and loop type as its facing the wrong way... so a plain toggle would seem the only likely possibility...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Ivor.
This is only an assumption but might this not be a situation where the two upper fasteners are held permanent when the paenula is worn and that all others are in fact plain wood toggles that can be realised quickly to allow the cloak to be thrown over the shoulder, hence the reason why the sculptor has shown this difference in the types of fasteners.
Or.....Maybe it did not fit him? I don't think any of us will ever know.
This is what I have done with my Heavyweight Cloak for fasteners.
I would like to replicate this on the second one but with buttons of some sort. This second cloak, the mustard colour one, is of a lighter weight and will "drape" as per Mr Camomile St......If I get the fasteners right.
"A small cloak fastener in thin brass" etc Wild type VIII? seems more like type Vd to me?
Anyway what's of interest is, it seems to have the remains of something adhering to the back possibly mineralised cloth or leather? so may be worth some further research, unfortunately the description doesn't go into any detail in this regard...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
