Renatus.
I can indeed understand what you are getting at about a thong maybe sewn onto the edge of the material to create button holes, however where you mention about where the garment separates that it may be partially sewn.
It is here that we must go back to the overall view I gave of the soldier where we find that there is indeed yet another button loop fastener at that point where the garment separates and appears to be missing where Mike has shown that area enlarged.
Here is a picture that I have just enlarged of the area in question from the full picture and we find there is in fact yet another button loop fastener.
[attachment=12046]cam.jpg[/attachment]
Kevin.
With not wanting to go too far off topic the original and replica I made of the one on the left and also shown upside down has a length of,
45 mm
the button length is,
23 mm
the base of the triangle outer is,
12 mm with inside of 6 mm
Then the broken one with the tear drop shape button that is 20 mm length so as you can see these are small objects indeed,
These become stronger when made from brass plate and can be made in two parts where the triangular piece is braised onto the back of the button, a good tip is to drill just a small indent into the rear of the button and also into the end of the right angle bent over piece then a small amount of braising melted into these indents then when heated with a torch they fuse together just right.
All four that you need can be done this way or you could do one then have a load lost wax cast for future use, here is a load I did some time back that were all made from brass plate and are very strong indeed also you can see there were some very decorative ones with inlays pieces of which I do have in my collection.
[attachment=12047]Picture096.jpg[/attachment]
Thank you those pictures Brian. Now I know what I am looking for. Initially I thought that there were 2 parts to these closures, technically there is, a button hole. I like the idea of a small button hole just the other side if the hem on the front of the cloak. This would show the material pulling if close enough to the seam I think.
Looking at Brian's most recent pic of Mr Camomile St, it looks from that distance that there could possibly be up to 5 fittings.
That's another discussion for another time.
Kevin.
Thought I would edit rather than start new post.....How about this for an idea......A small patch of leather sewn under the left side, as we look at it, the Button being sewn only to the leather patch close to the hem/seam. A Button hole made just in from the seam./hem on both sides. The Button goes through the right hand one first then back through the left. This would then let the Button sit central to the seam/hem/join and keep it tight together.....I will try this when I have made some Buttons to see if it works.
Kevin
As Mike has pointed out you do not get button holes in surviving textiles and as far as I know they were unknown in the Roman period. Recently I did some paintings of figures in the Byzantine era for Timothy Dawson and even at that date they are still using the button and loop method for closing.
Equally the Camomile type is not he only method of closing used. As I said earlier one other example appears to be sewn closed while another appears to be laced together.
Quite a superb collection of fasteners Brian!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Quote:I must admit I too favour button holes, hinted at by the way the fabric is depicted as pulling:
However, until somebody finds a button hole in a piece of textile, the jury's out on that one. ;-)
Garments fastened by buttons in a hole are an invention which the American medievalist Lynn White attributed to high medieval Germany. There is pictorial evidence for buttons fastened with loops in antiquity, but no conclusive evidence for buttons inserted through holes in the garment. Hard to believe, but the Chinese, for one, figured it out even later.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
Quote:Garments fastened by buttons in a hole are an invention which the American medievalist Lynn White attributed to high medieval Germany.
Well, segmental armour articulated on straps was independently (re)invented several times around the world, so I for one wouldn't be too surprised if a button hole comes to light one day in a Roman context. ;-)
Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles
Anyone can log in to this website - worth joining.
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Where I have mentioned earlier about the loops that Graham has shown in his garment picture I again have to say that with these button loop fasteners the whole of the triangular part of the item has to be sewn onto the garment material on the inside, this is where the triangle has to go through a tiny slot some distance of around 5 mm from the edge of the material it goes through then loops more tightly sewn together on the other edge are pushed so much more tightly over the button and this would give a much more secure way of holding the garment together.
The idea of a button hole as Mike has mentioned may well have to wait until one is indeed found but then let us not run away with this idea that because one has not been found they were never used by the Romans.
Well there is a sort of round button hole on the Thorsberg tunic which is as far I know is not Roman, however it is button holed below the right shoulder on the front.... perhaps an attachment point for a cloak?...
So I guess at least the technique was known in Europe... .
see Abb137 "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland" Schlabow 1976 for more detail
But then how do you tell even if you find one on a piece of textile if a "button hole" was used for a button or not?
Edit According to War a Worship pg 43 the tunic is apparently displayed the wrong way and the front as proposed by Schlabow is in fact the back, which means the button appears on the back left shoulder, but still it seems is regarded as a button hole in the absence of any other plausible explanation...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Ivor.
Where you mention the Thorsberg tunic and a button hole also the possibility that this idea may have been known of in Europe I do have also in my collection much larger button loop fasteners that could indeed have been used as cloak fasteners at the upper shoulder area.
These two have discs that are 35 mm diameter and the triangle remaining on one has a base line of 25 mm outer and 15 mm inner I have also made a replica of one of them as it would have looked when used.
There are also shown on coins images of emperors with very large cloak fasteners such as these types I show here so can there have such button holes for this purpose.
[attachment=12062]easyshare2315Medium.jpg[/attachment]
Oh well....Button Holes get put alongside the Ashtray and Gortex in the "hopeful" category.
That's the reason I started this thread was to get valuable advice from you all.
So a loop it stays. I think Brian and Micheal may have both hit on this....the thong running vertically along the seam. Maybe just one small loop to encompass the Button.?????
Great link there Moi...Ta muchly.
Kevin
Quote:Well, segmental armour articulated on straps was independently (re)invented several times around the world, so I for one wouldn't be too surprised if a button hole comes to light one day in a Roman context. ;-)
Never say never, particularly not when the inventiveness of the Romans, underrated as it is, is concerned. :mrgreen:
There is an old article re the subject which is useful as a starting point:
Kate McK. Elderkin: Buttons and Their Use on Greek Garments, American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 32, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1928), pp. 333-345.
A reverse search yields nine citations in recent literature.
Anyone finding reliable evidence for button-holes in antiquity, let us know. I am interested in the subject.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
Brian I think anything's possible, its too easy to make errors though based on a minimum of evidence even though there are plenty of these button and loop fasteners and therefore must have been in common usage... images don"t to my mind really answer the questions.... I can look at the Camomile street soldier all day and easily come to the conclusion its a small round brooch, this just seems more logical based on this image alone....
Maybe its an idea to list the potential uses of such a fastening... and why do they disappear at the end of the second century(Wild pg146)? and what potential replacements are there if any that would serve the same function?...
I think its also a good idea to look at the alternatives as well.....
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
I don't know why everyone's hating on the toggles. It seems to be a perfectly low-tech solution, especially for in-the-field repairs when you don't have access to fancy brass closures. Wood rots, so I'm not surprised there's no hard find to preset as empirical proof. I get the problem with the button-hole however, so I went with leather loops (Cut from one piece) offset from the edge to get them to close as tightly as possible. In hindsight I suppose i could have sewn them on the inside instead of the outside, however I think that would cause the closure edges to 'tent' and not look right...
