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Daniel S Peterson · 11-26-2003, 07:55 PM

With the ever increasing interest in the 'late' Roman period, we have a tenative 'go ahead' to organize an event sometime in 2004 at the Archeon living history park in Holland. We need to initially get an idea of how many groups and individuals would be interested in participating, and what time period would be best for the majority. This would be limited to post 300 AD to circa 600 AD Roman, as well as 'Barbarian impressions. At tis point we do not know if transportation costs will be compensated for, but there would be free food and drink, and paritipants would be free to sell appropriate period crafts and goods to the visitors. If you are interested in such an event, please post pictures of your group or individual impression on the thread with contact addresses, and probably number of participants. If you know any 'quality' migration period Germannic groups, please let them know too. If you have never been to the Archeon, it is a wonderful site for an event of this type with both reconstructed Roman and Bronze/Iron age 'Barbarian' buildings. 
Anyone with ideas to make this a great event, feel free to add them here too. 
 
Dan

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-27-2003, 03:11 PM

Brilliant idea, count us in. I'll spread the word. 
Any idea about what month/weekend you're looking at? 
 
Anyone wanting to know about what ARCHEON looks like: 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/archeon2001.htm" target="top]Archeon - Roman Days Sunday 5 August 2001[/url] 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/archeon2002.htm" target="top]Archeon - Roman Days Monday 12 August 2002[/url] 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/archeon2003.htm" target="top]Archeon - Roman Days Saturday 16 August 2003[/url] 
[url=http://www.archeon.nl" target="top]ARCHEON - official site.[/url] 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]FECTIENSES SENIORES a.k.a. FECTIO[/url] Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 11/27/03 4:22 pm

aitor iriarte · 11-27-2003, 04:33 PM

That sounds fantastic Dan! 
The Cohors Prima Gallica will be very pleased to attend. The same question posed by Robert: Which date is (more or less) scheduled for the event? (Unfortunately, we all tend to choose the same dates for our festivals and sometimes it is really difficult to fit everything into a timetable!) 
 
Aitor

11-27-2003, 10:00 PM

Dear Dan, 
 
You can rely on the FOEDERATI from France, if we don't have an event at the same time. As Aitor I'd like to get more informations. 
Vale, 
Arbogast (Alain Alexandra)

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-28-2003, 09:58 AM

Maybe we should go for an early date, say April or May. Most groups won't have plans for so early, I presume. Temperatures won't be a problem,we Late Romans are, after all, better 'covered' for that in terms of clothing. 
 
Alternatively, a later date seems less possible, because ARCHEON is usually fully booked from July till October. Also, for reasons of publicity I think that Jack (the director) would want to separate us from the main 'Roman Days' in August. 
 
Dan, have had any talks yet with ARCHEON as to the date? I think settling this is crucial for most groups. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

11-28-2003, 04:22 PM

I think April is a good alternative.

Daniel S Peterson · 11-28-2003, 09:01 PM

Hello All, 
Yes, I agree that early (like April) would probably be best due to potential conflict with other events. However, what I believe is now one of the World's premier Roman events in the environs of Rome (Albano 02 & Ostia 03) also take place in April, as well as Easter. Titus, if you see this let us know if a Rome environs event will happen this year and if it will be in April. I'd say we tenatively plan for April but on an exact date pending news on the now 'annual' Rome area event. 
 
How does the Easter Weekend sound for everyone? Pros include it may be a three day holiday for many people. 
 
What are everyone's thought so far about simulated combat, possibly with the 'felt sword system'? I was used to good effect at the major Ostia/Albano events, is fairly safe for 'beginner' fighters and will not damage equipment. Most of the late Roman era Germannic groups 'fight' and I believe if this is incorporated it will make this period grow. This is clearly one of the big appeal of 'Norman-Saxon-Viking' era reenactors, many of which could 'retrograde' to late Roman antagonists if we could make the period interesting.

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-28-2003, 10:58 PM

Dan, 
 
I think we should go for the Easter weekend, i.e. 9 April-12 April 2004. How does ARCHEON think about that? 
 
I'm not so sure about the fighting. Fectio doesn't fight, at least we don't fight right now. I don't know about other groups either. I've contacted UK groups that do, however. I'd like to know what the other groups think of the idea of a big fight. 
 
My main objections to Late Roman fighting shows are these: 
1) The main fighting technique was not not done by small groups or individuals with swords, but but large blocks with long lances. Totally different from the Gladius fighting of earlier Romans. Can we reproduce that with the felt system? Are there ways to put big felt spear heads on 7-9 ft. lances? 
2) Combat is indeed the big appeal of 'Norman-Saxon-Viking' era, to the public at least. But this is all show, no more than that. If you fight, it should be realistic, and we can't be. If we would be, there would be casualties, and we can't have that. So why even try? 
3) The fighting groups that I know of, fight with 'hard' weapons, I don't know if they would go for the felt kind. Are there spathas from felt material? Also, these groups fight man to man, only some even attempt to fight with spears from ranks (Comitatus do). 
4) If we do attempt a fighting show, there should be training. There will be a lot of groups and probably none has worked together before. Unlike the 1st c. groups, no clear rules exist as yet for Late Roman groups. Most 4-7th c. fighting shows are about pairs of fighters, unlike a real Late Roman battle. 
 
I'm not dead against fighthting, period, but I'm dead against showing the public something that does not work and does not look right. It's one of the basic rules in re-enacting in front of public, I think. If we can, we might try, but within a sound set of rules: the right weapons (or imitations), the right tactics, the right formations. No melee-like free for all stuf as the 'Norman-Saxon-Viking' era groups do. 
 
I'd like to ask all the others to react to the above. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 11/29/03 12:28 am

11-28-2003, 11:02 PM

Easter Weekend sounds good. Concerning the fight, why not ? It might be fun... 
 
Alain

aitor iriarte · 11-29-2003, 10:15 AM

Easter week-end? It doesn't sound bad. I have to ask the rest of the group and I'll tell you... 
Fighting? Well, we're only one year old and we've occasionally fought in small groups, but never using felt swords (we don't even know how one of those looks like!). 
I agree with Robert on the close formation fighting with the hasta as primary weapon. The spear was not a throwing, disposable weapon like the pilum. Only in the most desperate situations during a battle, when the formation was broken, would soldiers resort to their swords. 
We're still Romans and, no matter if the last ones, we wouldn't like to fight like undisciplined Germans ! 
Yes Dan, what does Archeon say? 
 
Aitor

Daniel S Peterson · 11-30-2003, 05:12 PM

Aitor, Robert, all, 
before we propose a set date for the event to archeon, lets try to get the participaton of a few more groups and make sure that the date is right for them too. Has anyone approached any of the late Romans from britain? How many particpants will we have (roughly) from the groups already interested? 
 
I agree that if we fight we should do it accurately, and yes, heavy hasta can also be employed in the system. In fact, for safety purposes, these are not allowed to be thrown. Let's not forget though that there were plenty of missiles being hurled in late battles (plumbata and verutum, not to mention archery, and all of these can be employed.) 
 
I too was concerned that 'barbarian' groups accustomed to metal sword fighting would think the felt system for 'sissys' and not participate. However, similar 'metal minded' Celt groups have embraced the system once they actually tried it. As you know, most metal sword fighting is essentially a pre-arranged 'show' because these weapons are so dangerous. The beauty of the felt system, is that the combat is real, and not pre-determined. Therefore you can have real, all weekend combat scenarios of opposing groups in wildnerness areas. Moreover, in that it only produces the most minor of damage to equipment, units can both fight, and look authentic, in other words, you can finally make a really good, authentic shield, because you'll know it won't be destroyed after a one or two events of steel sword fighting. 
 
Aitor, if you send me your mailing address I will send you a 'felt' spearpoint. you can see how they work, and order the material locally. It is very cheap, you might even be able to get free scrap from a carpet store. 
 
We had upwards to 150 Roman soldiers fighting at Ostia with no serious injuries. most of these people never fought before. 
Minor damage was sustained to some equpment, not from the swords, but just from shields bumping together, falling on the ground, etc. 
 
While I like the 'standard weekend display' as much as anyone, i believe it will take combat simulation for the late roman/germanic period to grow, like virtually every other period. I don't believe 2000 would come to Hastings or 12,000 to Gettysburg if there were no battles. 
 
Dan

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-30-2003, 07:59 PM

Dan, 
 
You agree with me that a date must be set very soon? Most groups are fully booked yet, or aare close to doing so. 2005 might be better idea, but there's already stiff competition. April may be the only month relatively free, or the next month is october! 
 
I've contacted the Batavi, Britannia, Comitatus, ERA, several individuals, even the Equites Stablesianorum Gariannonensium. I've not been in touch with any Anglo-Saxon groups yet. 
Apart from Comitatus, who are already booked for that weekend (but two of them want to attend anyway), no reply yet. 
 
About the felt system, why not? I mean, as long as we try to do it the late Roman way, it could look good. Dan, hasta atre for stabbing, not for throwing, they are 7-9ft long! Plumbatae from felt would not work, too light to look like the real thing. However, we could take the real think and attach a rubber stop on the point. that could work. 
 
Of course, "metal sword fighting is essentially a pre-arranged 'show'", I know that. Bloody dangerous. However, I've been in shows where metal weapons were used by groups who did not know each other. It was uncontrolled, but apart from minor incidents, it went OK. It's just that it did not look like two units in close combat, it was controlled chaos. As long as we realise that we can never to the real thing, but attempt to make it look like that, it might work. I guess fighting with felt will look like uncintrolled bashing, not choreogrtaphed 'fencing'. Just realise, Dan, that late Roman fighting in close formations looked far more like Greek hoplite battles than the 1st C. legionairy battles you've experienced. No swords! 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

11-30-2003, 09:34 PM

Robert, 
Do you want me to re-contact Dan Shadrake ? He's a very close friend and may answer quicker... Concerning the other group I know thay are good and I allready participate to different shows with ERA, Britannia and some early saxon groups (The Raven Warband, Wulfingas) at Old Sarum in 2000-2001, and they are as good in fighting as in living history. 
Concerning the battles with felt swords, I've seen one at Saint-Romain en Gal this year... It looks good and it's safe !!! 
If this event takes part in 2005 (or even in april 2004), we may be able to make our fake weapons (spears and swords) a bit more realistic than just "old carpet swords"... 
 
Alain

**Robert Vermaat** · 11-30-2003, 11:41 PM

Hi Alain, 
 
Good idea, please do so. The more the merrier, I'd say. 
Concerning the fake stuff, we'd best start early, then.. Is there a guide-book around? 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

aitor iriarte · 12-01-2003, 07:27 AM

Dan, 
 
I think that the date should be arranged previously (I'm not meaning 'fixed') so we, the would-be partakers, could make up our minds and decide if we can go or not. 
Will you be able to carry some felt weapons to the event ? It would be very helpful to know if there will be more weapons apart from those carried by us. The Easter week-end is just there and with little time to put many of our sluggish fellow-soldiers to work on the 'fabrica'! 
 
Aitor

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