Hi all,
After popping out for a ciggy tonight, I realised how cold it was, that's in Devon.
So I started thinking.....Now I've been outside in freezing temps before in Roman gear, most of you have I expect.......but...here it comes....BUT, Who actually stated that first century AD soldiers wore sleeveless tunica?
Seeing as most units that comprised of the invasion force came from the Germania Limes/borders where temperatures are known to plummet in the winter, I can imagine those soldiers/units/legions even, being well equipped for cold weather.
So....as I said before...who is responsible, both in literature and images for portraying the Miles in Tunica only?
Was it a '70's thing when we all knew no better? etc etc for examples of excuses?
If anyone could enlighten me it would be well appreciated, and change our dress style.
Kevin
Who actually stated that first century AD soldiers wore sleeveless tunica?
who is responsible, both in literature and images for portraying the Miles in Tunica only?
The Romans!
First century sculpture shows Roman soldiers in short sleeved tunics. Cloaks were also worn indoors as well as outdoors. In colder weather Romans would wear more layers of tunics and cloaks. The material cannot be too bulky as it would be impossible to move. Some re-enactors have tunics and cloaks that are too thick or even too small.
Was it a '70's thing when we all knew no better?
The first re-enactors based their clothing on Roman sculpture in particular Trajan's column. Like most Roman campaigns, most re-enactments take place in the spring and Summer. If you wear a couple of reasonably sized tunics under a couple of reasonably sized cloaks you should be warm enough for most events.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Thank you Mr Summer,
I appreciate what you have to say. it makes good sense of course......now comes that BUT....sorry. My impression is of a soldier manning the ramparts, it starts to rain, as it has done for the last 20 years....Miles thinks, better get something a bit water resistant as im on stag for 8 hours......Is anything available? And im in Dunomni territory,
Kevin.
Where you mention having to do an 8 hour stint in the rain it makes me think of the Camomile street soldier and indeed other depictions of this garment that looks to maybe be thin leather that has been given a water proof coating.
It also as others looks to be held by button loop fasteners which allow it to be undone and thrown over the shoulder to give access to weapons should one need.
[attachment=11316]cs.jpg[/attachment]
In that case it is more likely that you can have a wool Paenula cloak which can, as I mentioned previously, be used with an under paenula and possibly evan an over paenula as well. It is suggested that the reason most depictions show these cloaks in a yellow brown colour is that were a natural un-dyed wool which therefore retained the lanolin and made them waterproof.
The image above does not look like leather to me but there may have have been leather versions. The only cloak I know in leather is a type made from pieces, found in a Danish bog and presumably not a Roman type as such. All finds so far of paenula type cloaks are wool.
If you want more information on cloaks and clothing there is always my book 'Roman Military Dress'.
If all else fails stay in the turret or better still the barracks!
I hope this helps.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
The main reason clothing helps you stay warm is that it A. Traps bodyheat B. Shields you from wind and draft and C. Keeps you dry. The bulky tunica favoured by the Romans has a great many folds and extends down the arms a good way. Re-enactment tunics are often as not too narrow by far. Two tunics worn over one another, certainly woolen ones of a tight weave, should take care of A and to some extent B. The woolen cloak does a lot for A en certainly for B, and given a tight weave and a fatty/greasy wool to repel water, should go a long way to achieve C as well. If braccea were worn, it should keep the vitals warm, socks are documented, so that should give you an almost total body cover. After the first century, closed boots replace open sandels, with warm feet as a result. Covering the head is also very important, a felt arming cap and the hood of the cloak should deal with that. All in all, there is no need to question the dress as presently reconstructed from the prime sources and introduce sleeved tunica or what have you in the way of fantasy garments.
I think it is like the default place unless you place it yourself in another section when creating a new thread... That's what happened at first with one of my threads...
If Kevin can edit the first post, then it can be moved, if not then a moderator is the only person who can move it.
Part of the problem for both scholars and re-enactors is that much of what we claim to know is based on column reliefs. As an amateur historian, two things come to mind in this discussion. First, the reliefs are generally meant to commemorate a particular battle or campaign. Second, the reliefs are the artist's conception of how best to present the Romans as heroic. I am reminded od depictions on Greek pottery. In any event, such reliefs must be understood for what they are meant to portray, not the accuracy of military attire and weaponry. That does not mean we should not look at reliefs both for information intended to be given and as guides for our recreations.
It occurs to me that Roman troops fighting or occupying colder (or warmer) climes would tend to adopt and adapt attire and gear common to locals, at least to the extent permitted by their commanders.. So it is quite possible, for example, that tunics with long sleeves and a longer length may well have been used in England and Gaul. Likewise cloaks might have been thicker and longer, etc. Soldiers throughout the ages have frequently made changes to adapt to local conditions.
However remember we are also working with the same constraints for 'local' gear as we are for the Romans only worse, as often we have no local archaeological sources to verify what the Romans show as native gear and not what Roman audiences expect is native gear. If we go from some Roman monuments then 'local' gear is wearing nothing at all! Not very good for winter apparel!
Equally it seems to be a common suggestion that in places like Britain for example Roman troops went to shops in the vicus and bought native clothing from merchants, even though those merchants were probably not 'local' themselves and presumably supplying goods for the Roman market.
Hence modern re-enactors wearing Roman kit over tartan checked clothes, which is what is presumed to be 'Celtic' clothing!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Ahem - I suppose I should come clean and admit to being someone who owns a check tunic copied from one of the ones from Thorsberg and which I do sometimes wear under a Roman one. I should also say though that this is only one of three tunics I keep for use as an extra layer in cold weather and both of the others are normal Roman style tunics. The overall insulation always seems about the same, for what it's worth. As Graham has said, I would always add a cloak to that (unless I was kitted out for fighting, where a cloak would be a hindrance). I would normally use socks and leg bindings in cold weather as well.
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Hi all,
I needed to come back to replies from you all.
Firstly, layered Tunics are a must. That's the "core" heat.
Secondly, Foot wraps wearing Caligae help, though through experience I have found these unnecessary as the Caligae keep ones feet warm, how I don't know, but they do. Maybe the amount of leather used in construction is enough to warm the foot but not excessive to draw heat away from the foot to warm the leather.
Thirdly, this really is an unknown entity. Cloaks covered much, but what about lower arms? No long sleeved Tunics available, so were lower arms treated like lower legs with wraps?
Kevin.
If one relies primarily upon sculptures and columns, which were intended to idealize the Roman legionnaire, it is easy to make presumptions. But let me pose a query. Assuming a legionnaire put on multiple layers of tunics, etc., to protect from extreme cold temperatures, would he not have difficulty in getting his armor on? I have suggested previously, and continue to suggest, that it is much more likely that legionnaires adopted cold weather clothing used by local warriors. Why is this not seen in sculpture? It is my educated guess that this would not meet the ideal of a Mediterranean-centered culture.
