Segmentata - with or without subarmalis?

[Sextus Saturninus]

Caracalla wore linen armor under his clothes, but it did not do much good when he was assassinated!

[Dan Howard]

However I was thinking more in terms of regular Roman troops wearing linen armour. Nevertheless I would be interested to learn what you think Galba, Caracalla or his phalanx might actually have been wearing.

I would have gone with the standard assembly of 12-15 layers of quilted linen but the phrase "three-ply" is inconsistent with that. How certain is the translation of this word? One possibility is a thicker fabric like the "twill weave" greave liner found at Dura Europos. Three layers of that would be a pretty good defence.

[Dan Howard]

Caracalla wore linen armor under his clothes, but it did not do much good when he was assassinated!

Do we know where he was hit? Body armour isn't much use against attacks that aren't aimed at the armour. Just ask Archduke Franz Ferdinand. He was wearing anti-ballistic cloth armour but was shot in the neck.

[Sextus Saturninus]

Yes, we are not sure where he was hit, but we are sure that he was killed at least :-)

[Graham Sumner]

Dan Howard wrote:

Do we know where he was hit?

Behind a rock when he was relieving himself! :whistle:

Graham.

[Renatus]

Dan Howard wrote:

Do we know where he was hit?

Behind a rock when he was relieving himself! :whistle:

Gives an entirely new perspective to the concept of being 'caught short'.

[Sextus Saturninus]

We might not know exactly where in the body he was hit, but I think that it is most likely that he was hit in the back of the body or head.

[Dan Howard]

We might not know exactly where in the body he was hit, but I think that it is most likely that he was hit in the back of the body or head.

So there isn't much point speculating on the efficacy of his linen armour.

[Scipio Second]

Lots has been said, but I want to put my two cents worth in. I wear a custom made Roman cuirass. But it would be most uncomfortable without at least padding for the shoulders. I acquired a sub intended for full medieval armor. I altered it so it now covers only my shoulders, top of my back, and top of my chest. With this padding, I can wear my cuirass comfortably for many hours without chaffing. This provided a practical solution to the problem of wearing armor, especially for long periods.

Publius Quinctius Petrus Augustinus
(aka Pierre A. Kleff, Jr.)

[Dan Howard]

A lot of extant helmets and cuirasses have holes spaced around the perimeter for the attachment of a lining. It explains why a lot of Greek illustrations apparently show armour being worn over regular tunics. My bronze cuirass is lined with three layers of linen except for the shoulder section, which has six. It is perfectly comfortable over a tunic. Armour with an integrated liner does not need a separate subarmalis.

[Crispvs]

"Armour with an integrated liner does not need a separate subarmalis."

As long as that lining is sufficiently padded that it is able to counteract or absorb the blunt force trauma caused by a blow hitting the armour it is attached to. After all, it doesn't matter how comfortable a lining is, if it doesn't stop the force of a blow transferring directly through to your bones and vital organs.

Crispvs

[Dan Howard]

Blunt force trauma is seriously over-hyped - even with mail. With a rigid cuirass it is a non issue. A 150 lb English warbow at 10 yards can't deliver enough energy to seriously injure someone in a rigid cuirass - even with no padding at all.

[Creon01]

Lots has been said, but I want to put my two cents worth in. I wear a custom made Roman cuirass. But it would be most uncomfortable without at least padding for the shoulders. I acquired a sub intended for full medieval armor. I altered it so it now covers only my shoulders, top of my back, and top of my chest. With this padding, I can wear my cuirass comfortably for many hours without chaffing. This provided a practical solution to the problem of wearing armor, especially for long periods.

Publius Quinctius Petrus Augustinus
(aka Pierre A. Kleff, Jr.)

I don't mean to sound snarky, as I will be recieving a custom made Newstead soon, but with all that padding can you still move your arms sufficiantly to fight in a manner we believe the Romans fought? I've discussed this with a number of well equiped reenactors and a few tell me they can't really throw a pilum properly with their subarmalis on. All that padding does indeed make our armor more comfortable, but do you think it limits our ability to move properly? I have no idea yet and hope to gain some insights from your experience.

[Crispvs]

How fit were these well equipped re-enactors you mention? I find no problem throwing a pilum with a subarmalis under my armour. I do find it difficult to throw a pilum when wearing a manica, as my arm is more restricted, but without a manica on my arms are free to flex and move without restriction. Most known types of Roman armour are flexible and so is a subarmalis, meaning that there is nothing to prevent the body turning in the act of throwing. Of course, I am reasonably fit and do a lot of regular exercise, which could be the difference between me and the other re-enactors you mentioned. Alternatively, was their armour big enough? If your armour is not big enough to accommodate you, a subarmalis and at least one extra tunic at the same time, custom made or not, it is too small for you.

Dan, as someone who has worked in a military hospital and seen combat wounds up close, I find it hard to accept your view on blunt force trauma. In any case, most known Roman armour types are not rigid, but flexible, including segmentata. There are probably better people on RAT than me to talk about the effectiveness of arrows at ten yards' distance, so I won't, but if you are talking about the bow's ability to penetrate. that is a different issue to that of blunt force trauma, where the shock travels straight through the armor to whatever the armour is in contact with underneath.

Crispvs

[Creon01]

How fit were these well equipped re-enactors you mention? I find no problem throwing a pilum with a subarmalis under my armour. I do find it difficult to throw a pilum when wearing a manica, as my arm is more restricted, but without a manica on my arms are free to flex and move without restriction. Most known types of Roman armour are flexible and so is a subarmalis, meaning that there is nothing to prevent the body turning in the act of throwing. Of course, I am reasonably fit and do a lot of regular exercise, which could be the difference between me and the other re-enactors you mentioned. Alternatively, was their armour big enough? If your armour is not big enough to accommodate you, a subarmalis and at least one extra tunic at the same time, custom made or not, it is too small for you.

Crispvs

Hard to get anyone to admit to putting on weight as they grow older which is probably part of the problem. Do you think some subs are over padded as comfort is a desired state for longer, less active reenactment events?

I apologize in advance to Mandy Barrow and whoever else owns the pics below. They are floating around the net and I normally use them to describe the use of "practice shields." They also show some very active reenactors who seem to simply wear thick tunics under their armor. Is that what you see?

[attachment=11378]WillowWickerShield03.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=11379]WillowWickerShield02.jpg[/attachment]