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Building a seg: width of gridle plates and overlap
#1
I'm experimenting with cardboard mockups for a replacement torso section for my Corbridge A segmentata (8 gridle plates). Matt Amt says to use 2 and 1/4 inch wide gridle plates, but for my torso, this seems to make a torso section that is too short (I'm 6'2" tall). 2 and 1/2 inch wide plates seem to work better. I've been assuming a 3/8 inch vertical overlap. Too little, or too much? This is what my Indian made seg appears to use. <p></p><i></i>
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#2
Sure, if you have to widen the plates, run with it. The actual Corbridge finds were all in the neighborhood of 2-1/4", but as I recall the Stillfried plates are almost 3" wide.<br>
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By the way, I'm over 6' tall but have a short torso (long legs), so my Corbridge B fits me fine. But it's too short for some guys who are shorter than me! That was pretty startling when we discovered it.<br>
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Vale,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#3
Heresy time:<br>
<br>
The number of girth hoops/girdle plates (call them what you will) was probably - if you are stupid enough to ask me - <em>not</em> linked to the type of armour but to the size of the wearer. Before Stillfried the hypothesis ran eight for the Corbridge A, seven for the Corbridge B/C, and six for the Newstead <em>because</em> Robinson believed in the decline of the number of hoops with time. To be fair, based on the Corbridge Hoard (and the absence of an actual find of Newstead girth hoops other than the enigmatic Zugmantel pieces), he could not really come to any other conclusion. The Stillfried find (Newstead type with seven plates in one half, eight in the other), however, changes this irrevocably. Why do it this way? Simple: because such things were dictated by realities, not by pattern books.<br>
<br>
How then did they vary the sizes of segmentata? Either by producing the same number of plates with different widths (awkward and time-consuming) or simply making them with a varying number of plates and allowing the slack in the internal leathers to accommodate the intermediate sizes. To me, the evidence seems to point convincingly to the latter rather than the former.<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#4
So, I wouldn't be laughed out of the legio if I made my seg with nine 2 and 1/4 inch plates rather than eight 2 and 1/2 inch plates? <p></p><i></i>
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#5
Here's a site with a chart to help you figure out the plate width for different torso lengths and plate overlaps.<br>
www.uncg.edu/%7Etarule/sc...ntata.html<br>
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Just figure your torso length following the directions, decide how much overlap you want between the plates and look across the chart to see what width the plates need to be. The writer doesn't mention anything about the bottom plate but keep in mind that if you roll the bottom edge you will loose a little on the plate width. I don't know if it matters much but if you make a 1/4 inch roll you will loose about 3/4 inch of the width ( that pi thing). <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jsantell@romanarmytalk>jsantell</A> at: 10/23/04 3:34 pm<br></i>
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#6
Juan, I looked at the table at that site, and I'm afraid that it doesn't make any sense (at least not to me). According to the plate width table I need a gridle plate width of over 3 inches! This is clearly wrong. My cardboard mockups indicate that 8 plates 2 and 1/2 inches wide with a 3/8 inch vertical overlap is about right.<br>
<br>
Thanks for the rule-of-thumb for the edge roll on the bottom plate. I've recently acquired a hand-seamer for that job. <p></p><i></i>
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#7
<em>So, I wouldn't be laughed out of the legio if I made my seg with nine 2 and 1/4 inch plates rather than eight 2 and 1/2 inch plates?</em><br>
<br>
You may well be... I just wouldn't be one of those laughing ;-) No examples of lorica seg with nine plates are known as yet, but I would say you could happily make a Corbridge A, B/C, or Newstead with eight. If you want to stick strictly to what is precedented, then it might be wise to avoid nine plates for now and just accept that this is an ever-developing subject.<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#8
Just for the record, just how many 6'2" romans were there?<br>
As I recall the Romans were often mocked for their short stature. So...it stands to reason that they would not find too many examples of armour built for tall men if in fact there were very few or none to begin with.<br>
It stands to reason had the roman army been staffed with the men of today it is quite possible that there would be examples of 9 plate seg.<br>
Cause and effect.... <p></p><i></i>
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#9
Then we're back to eight plates. I would say that if the Indian torso assembly fit you fine for the length, I would just use the same width and overlap and just re-adjust the shape and length of the individual plates to better fit your torso, perhaps with a bit more cutout on those top plates that are digging into the underside of your arm. If the Indian assembly is a little long or short figure how much either way and divide the difference by eight to see how much you need to add or take away from each plate. Don't drive yourself crazy with this, if you screw up the metal I have plenty more. I head up your way 2 or 3 times a month and can drop more off if you need it. <p></p><i></i>
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#10
<em>Just for the record, just how many 6'2" romans were there?</em><br>
<br>
Depends what you mean by a Roman: difficult to say if you mean residents of the city of Rome, as I'm not sure how much anthropological work has been done on that particular population. As for the army, remember that <em>most</em> of the army was recruited outside Italy in areas with non-Italian populations (Spain, Gaul, Germany etc) and that includes the legions.<br>
<br>
Anyway, here's one, at least. He was 1.90m high and was unfortunate enough to end up down a well at Velsen in AD28 with a rather nice dagger and 78kg of rubble on top of him (some might call that careless). One skeleton does not a statistical sample make (and it is difficult to gather the requisite data for the army in the 1st century AD given that cremation was then the favoured means of disposal of the dead), but it is best not to generalise about population sizes without data from which to work, certainly not on the 'of course, they were smaller in those days' line of thinking often found in Britain at least. Where it can be tested, they generally were not: Vegetius (I,5) talks of a <em>minimum</em> height requirement of 6 Rft (1.78m) for auxiliary cavalrymen and 5Rft 10Rin (1.73m) for legionary infantrymen of the first cohort. The average American male is apparently 1.755m high these days whereas his Dutch counterpart is 1.825m (so presumably destined for the cavalry ;-).<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#11
Juan, thanks again for the steel. I'm still experimenting with the cardboard mock-up. I've determined that I need a slight taper of decreasing radius in the girdle plates. I think that I'll stick with 8 plates 2 and half inches wide. In the population of romans I guess then that I'm an outlier. <p></p><i></i>
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#12
Ok, here's the fruit of my labor:<br>
<br>
www.geocities.com/romanle...icaseg.jpg<br>
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This is the Albion shoulder sections with a new torso section made by me. I made all new fittings, lacing loops and buckles, for the new torso section. I got it to fit as tight as I could. Using 2 and 1/2 inch wide plates I got the length so that the lorica now goes down to my hips instead of just barely covering my belly. Preliminary tests seem to indicate that it is quite comfortable to wear. I had to reposition the back buckles to eliminate a gap between the back plates. A new subarmalis made from felt is also in the works. My old linen one fell apart. <p></p><i></i>
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#13
Nicely done Nuralmancer. I only wish that my own metal working efforts came up to the same standard. Incidentally, are the Stillfried hooks a permanent feature or are they just temporary ones hooked over the girdle plate?<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#14
I finally put the Beverly to good use.<br>
<br>
The belt hooks aren't permanent, they're merely slipped between the girth loops. Some day I may make more accurate hooks and properly rivet them in place. <p></p><i></i>
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#15
Front view:<br>
66.66.131.145/roman/segmentataFront.jpg<br>
<br>
Back view:<br>
66.66.131.145/roman/segmentataBack.jpg<br>
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I spent a good portion of the Thanksgiving holiday teaking the fit. Except for a replaced back strap, the shoulder sections are as they came from Albion. The torso section with all of its fittings are by me. <p></p><i></i>
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