linothorax and other white cuirases

[MagnusStultus]

Unfortuantelly we have not a cuirass itself, but you will agree that the sleeves are impossible to move if metal. The detail of the sculptures is good enogh to undertand that there is not an error of the sculptor, having in mind we are talking of diferent sculptors in diferent years...about the subarmalis, also is a complicate topic itself but I agree it maybe. I will love to see more photos of this sculpture.

My friend, as Dan has pointed out, basically your first point is true of both leather and layered or quilted linen - the way the sculptures depict the armor/garment wrapping over the shoulder, in any type of protective material you're discussing (that being plate metal, leather hide, or quilted/layered linen), would not allow a soldier any range of movement. Think about it - you have to agree that this is just artistic interpretation, UNLESS you move on to chain mail, or alternatively, give up that it depicts armor altogether and is simply a garment of some sort.

As Dan pointed out, and I absolutely agree with after having literally spent hundreds of hours combing through every last image I can find for that Holy Grail sculpture or wall painting which will make all of Roman armory absolutely clear - I have come to believe that many Roman artists were using real military objects to guide their sculpting and paintings, HOWEVER, I do not believe they were at all concerned with photo-realism. There is so much variation in the artistic depictions of Roman military subjects; I'm quite certain that their aim was to create an aesthetically pleasing image given the resources available, and perhaps used real-life objects as a guide (case in point - Trajan's column; did the artists carving the scenes onto the column travel all the way to Dacia to see what the Roman troops actually looked like on campaign? Or did they just ask for some random Praetorians stationed in Rome to strike a pose?). Sometimes we see sculptures that are so seemingly "clean" in their depictions (the Augustus Prima Porta is a striking example), even including such details as the woven textile across the pyteruges, that we say to ourselves " aha! this must have actually existed in real life!" But even then, we really do not know, and can never know until Octavian's breastplate is recovered from the depths of the Palatine hill, etc.. And most Roman military depictions are of an obviously much lower quality, anyway, so that it would be perfectly understandable for the artist to fudge wherever necessary.

To be fair to the monuments artists the types of armor depicted are confirmed by tombstones, however the tombstones clearly depict metal not leather.

Of course leather was extremely important but it was important for the same reasons in the civilian world.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

So, how you explain lorica linteam?

What is the source of the term? The Romans didn't even differentiate in armor until 409, when they started using Squamata and Hamata.

[Xavi]

Suetonius on Galva (60 AD aprox)

Loricam tamen induit linteam, quanquam haud dissimulans parum adversum tot mucrones profuturam.

He did however put on a linen cuirass, though he openly declared that it would afford little protection against so many points.

[Xavi]

Hi Magnus
I don´t see what you mean...

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Suetonius on Galva (60 AD aprox)

Loricam tamen induit linteam, quanquam haud dissimulans parum adversum tot mucrones profuturam.

He did however put on a linen cuirass, though he openly declared that it would afford little protection against so many points.

This doesn't mean it was Glued Linen. It sounds like it was quilted linen.

[Xavi]

It must be something linen. The point Is that We ha no one representation of any generals that looks quilted...but many that are better explain If glued

[Dan Howard]

Linothorax must have important advantages Because it replaced bronze ones during several centuries and they were weared by generals and even by Alexander the great. This means it was not a matter of cost.

Alexander had at least three cuirasses: one that he wore over to Asia, another one that he stole from the alleged tomb of Achilles and a third that he was given as loot after the battle of Issus (?). Only the third was made of linen. He probably wore a fourth one during his meeting with Darius' wife where she confused him with Hephaestion.

It must be something linen.

Agreed. I think there is reference to a Roman commander armouring some of his troops in linen too. But the most obvious typology is the tube and yoke style and not the musculata. The most obvious material from which to make musculata is metal. We have tons of examples from all over the place so there is plenty of precedent. There is no precedent for leather or linen musculata and the construction of such a thing will prove problematic.

Dan, you have experience in quilted armour. How many layers of quilted linen keep flexible?

It depends on how it is quilted. The closer the rows of stitching the more rigid the result. You can make a corselet all from the same number of layers and have some parts flexible and some parts rigid simply by altering the quilting. A lot of textile armour was covered with a layer of fine leather or cloth (silk, damask, etc). The construction details are hidden underneath so you can't see quilting lines.

[Thomas V.]

Xavi B, as I’m getting more and more frustrated, I have decided to pool all my previous thoughts on your musculata theory in a single post. You use two types of armour as a proof for the existence of musculata cuirasses made out of linen layers glued together. The first type (called type A in the following) of armour has sleeves and a smooth surface and is jointless, flexible and white and seems to resemble a musculata. The second type (called type B in the following) is sleeveless, consists of two shells (and therefore has joints) and is equipped with hinged shoulder flaps.

Regarding Type A

It indeed makes sense to consider the absence of joints and the presence of sleeves, that seem to merge with the body, as an indicator of flexibility.

Wich type of Roman body armour is flexible (and therefore doesn't necessarily need joints)? Chainmail.

Wich type of Roman body armour shows the kind of sleeve you use as an indicator of flexibility? Chainmail:
[attachment=10953]ChainmailSleeves.jpg[/attachment]

Wich type of roman body armour sometimes occurs with a smooth surface in stone carvings? Chainmail:
[attachment=10959]ChainmailSmooth.jpg[/attachment]

Did centurion armour – your type A armour seems to bee associated with centurions (e.g. Colchester or Graz) - try to copy the look of the musculata armour? Yes:
[attachment=10954]SertoriusFestus.jpg[/attachment]
Just compare the semicircular pteryges of the scale armour with the semicircular musculata pteryges.

So your first type of armour are just depictions of a certain lorica hamata (Or sometimes squamata?) type (Centurion-specific type?) Wich you misinterpreted as a flexibly musculata type.


Regarding Type B

Your type B armour is the classic muscle cuirass of the imperial period. Examples posted in this thread indicate a rigid material: The shoulder flaps need hinges, the body part consists of two shells (and has joints on both sides) and the vertical edges of said shells terminate in 90-degree flanges. A material so flexible, that the sleeve effect of the type A armour could be achieved, would make hinges and a two-pice construction superfluos and couldn’t achieve the rectangualar edges.

So wich rigid material is contemplable? Archaeological finds militate for metal. The survivivng Greek/Italic muscle cuirasses are made of metal. Said cuirasses proof two things: Metal is a suited material and people back then were able to produce metal muscle cuirasses. I‘m aware that there is no example of a muscle cuirass of the Roman imperial period. However, there are finds wich are attributed to imperial muscle cuirasses (see also: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...armor.html). These finds also militate for metal.

The Cueva del Jarro cuirass consists of bronze:
[attachment=10955]CuevadelJarro.jpg[/attachment]

The Kemnitz grave 622 finds are made of gilded bronze:
[attachment=10960]MusculataFragmentsKemnitz.jpg[/attachment]

This griffin (said to be a musculata decoration) is made of bronze:
[attachment=10956]BronzeCuirassGriffin.jpg[/attachment]

This bronze pteryx matrix indicates pressblech work and therefore also metal:
[attachment=10961]BronzePteryxMatrix.jpg[/attachment]

One of your arguments is the absence of hinges on the side of the Prima Porta cuirass.
In order to show how a hinged cuirass is supposed to look like, you refer to this photo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...icer_2.JPG. Well, the problem is, that said the photo shows the same characteristics like the Prima Porta cuirass. Your argument, that the tube-shaped devices on the Prima Porta statue do not provide enough space for a pin, isn’t convincing, as you cannot translate the statue literaly. Just take a look at these pteryges hinges (according to Th. Fischer, these semicircular metal pteryges were attached to the cuirass by hinges), especially the right one of the bottom layer:
[attachment=10957]PteryxLayersLeiden.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=10958]HingesHadrian.jpg[/attachment]

If you would translate the hinges literaly they also wouldn’t work. As you can see, the hinges of the muscle cuirass statues aren’t always depicted in a photo-realistic manner. So the argument you use to deny the hinges on the Prima Porta cuirass is invalid. The hinges shown in the second picture even look almost identical to the hinges of the Prima Porta cuirass. – a further corroboration, that the supposedly threads are a representation of hinges. A corrugated tube or zylinder is a perfect way for a stone carver to depict a pin-and-barrel hinge.


The Colour white

White can also represent the color silver. Furthermore, we don’t even know if the color,which appears as white nowadays, always has been the color white. There‘re two further problems regarding the white color: (1) sometimes the muscle cuirasses are just white because the material of the stone carving work is white, i.e. they‘re white per se; (2) things that obviously weren’t made of linen are also depicted white, so the color white doesn’t inevitable depict linen.


Glued Linen Armour

There isn't a single hint for the use of glue.


To Cut a Long Story Short

• Depictions showing flexible muscle cuirasses are misinterpreted depictions of a certain chainmail (Squamata?) type.
  
• Depictions of rigid muscle cuirasses indeed show muscle cuirasses. According to the archaeological evidences, the rigid material was metal.
  
• Hinges might quite probably not be absent on the side of the Prima Porta statue.
  
• The colour white isn’t necessarily indicating linen.
  
• There isn’t a single hint for glued linen armour

Conclusion

There isn’t a single hint, that there was a muscle cuirass type consisting of linen.

[Xavi]

Following your nice exposition, your statement is that is not possible to have a muscular armour with sleeves....and there are many.

this one have pectorals and niples:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_v-nFIazrgkA/SD...5891_1.JPG

This one yo can see how sleeves are stiff and the navel is modeled.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...m_Bonn.jpg

There are many other muscular cuirasses wth sleeves. In the other hand little or none chain armour with pteriges.

All muscle cuirasses have two hinges on each side. Prima porta has 4 joining points:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HPaXWrGG0to/UG...4small.jpg

[Dan Howard]

It is not possible to make armour that functions as you think. We've tried it. It can't be done. Talk to people who make this stuff. Talk to people who wear it. You are wasting your time looking at sculptures.

[Xavi]

Is possible. There are.many ways to achieve it, but you.must be aware of ancient technologies. Watching sculptures helps to make questions and to investigate.

[Xavi]

Hi Thomas
I found an interesting picture that show the use of texiles an also make Fischer statement about hinges, very dubtful:
Please click on the right image.

http://www.romanhideout.com/images/it/ne...relius.asp

Actually hinges have to purposes, to fix something or to make it mobile. Both are not necesary in the armours you show. And this sculpture of Marcus Aurelius show them as a decoration, like a sort of Mars bolt.

[Dan Howard]

After pages and pages of nonsense you finally start to ask some decent questions but now you aren't prepared to listen to the answers and we are back to where we started from.

[Xavi]

There Is no nonsense.

[Xavi]

There are some interenting images in Trajan´s Column that of maybe a Lorica Linteam:

In the first image it can be seen the textile look in the pterugues on left side officer. In the second, it can be seen in the cuirass and in the remaining pterugues.