Who Commanded the Velites?

[antiochus]

Renatus wrote:
I don't know if this is covered in Frank Walbank's A Historical Commentary on Polybius but I take it that you have studied that.

Yes I have studied Walbank. However, in regard to Polybius’ empirical data it does not sufficiently investigate the numbers. There are glaring mistakes in Polybius’ work, but strangely enough no one shows any interest. His numbers for the Telamon campaign should have rang alarm bells but no, many were happy to interpret Polybius’ numbers as the creation of a double consular army. At Telamon there would be eight Roman legions which contradict Polybius statement that such an event occurred for the first time at Cannae.

The same mathematical mistakes for Telamon surface in Livy’s books relating to 192 BC to 167 BC and that is why I know Livy’s source is Polybius. It’s not a new discovery as Livy makes that claim. The only interpretation I have read pertaining to these numbers is some historians believed the Romans had returned to having more allied infantry in a consular army. The fact that a consular army had only 800 allied cavalry and the ratio of allied infantry to allied cavalry has blown out to 30 to 1 goes unnoticed.

It’s unfortunate that many aspects of the primary sources are under researched.

[antiochus]

This discussion has produced two schools of thought:

one - the velites are under the command of the centurions in the legion,

two - the velites had their own centurions, thereby increasing the number of centurions in a legion.

So who is right and who is wrong?

Actually both parties are right!

Up to 211 BC the Roman light infantry had their own centurions. After 211 BC, as the velites were incorporated into the legion, what Livy is saying is the centurions of the legion commanded the velites. Therefore, the additional centurions were no longer required.

I have just finished studying, dissecting and reconstructing Livy’s text detailing the campaigns from 192 BC to 167 BC, those crazy campaigns with consular armies having 800 cavalry, or 400 cavalry and infantry number with 150 cavalry, and from all this data, which follows some constant ratios like a ratio of 30:1 in infantry to cavalry and worked out how a legion of 5200 had arisen. Most of Livy’s source is Polybius complete with his trademark mathematical incompetence. Same problems I found in Polybius’ Telamon campaign is saturated throughout Livy’s text.