Helmets, customisation, artistic favors...

[Prowler0508]

Hello to all ancient history/warfare lovers.

It may not be the politest thing to ask for something in the first post in this forum but I hope you be understanding.

I will also add a discussion topic

So, I would kindly ask if someone who has a helmet of Corintihan and Attic type is willing to make a several pictures for me, when time allowes them, showing ''unusual angles'' not often seen in photos from museums etc...

Specifically no en face or 2/3 view but actually several photos showing a 360 degree view of helmet laying on the ground, showing its hollow area. That is, from angle a) below and (if someone likes the idea) angle b). But mostly a), put like this and turned around its axis.



That is it :wink: I'll owe you one.

As for discussion...

I am very interested in the real, down to earth, non romanticized approach to ancient warfare...Statues and pottery are one, same as raising the flag at Iwo Jima is, but actual (in)glorious reality is another thing.

What I would like to talk about is, based on extensive experience many of you have with reenactorship (if that is the term), what kind of functional equipment customisation you think could be present in ancient Greek armies?

Now this is the topic where you can rarely call in ancient literature or pottery reference. It is a matter of imagination, creativity and mostly on field experience. For example, I don't like how most illustrators always show something that is more of a blueprint for the soldiers that what they would actually look like. And it makes them look very generic.To take more recent example, books almost never (with the exception of Vietnam war) show all those custom straps, graffiti, uniform and armor alterations soldiers always make to extent that even in modern, strictly regulated armies you can't easily find identicaly equipped individuals - especially in, hm, less formal armies that resemble ancient ones more than USMC.

Greeks (mostly) didn't have a standard issue equipment, so they would naturally take care of all the custom personal stuff when ordering armor...but, in their case, what would be ''non standard issue'', to put it that way, equipment that hoplite would use to make his combat more comfortable and /or practical. Did you find yourself needing something like that?

To think out loud...

Apart from taking care of chronic (usually joint) injuries (I injured wrist and shoulder while trying to pierce wood with a spear :oops: ) would you do something else before battle?
Are there certain parts of thorax that irritate the skin no matter how well it fits?
Does even well fitted greaves burn the ankle or midfoot?
Would the heat make hoplites shorten or cut the chiton to make it all less ''oven like''?
Also, I read somewhere that checkered pattern sometimes seen on pottery helmets could actually be a cloth put there to prevent overheating (something like what Crusaders did in the Holy Land)?
Are those 2-4 holes in corinthians, punched is such a raw fashion (compared to the delicate work of the original maestro maker), used when soldiers only realized they should strap the helm somehow?
Or that they wanted better hearing :whistle: Would poorer hoplites immitate bronze greaves with cheap cloth or such?

What would you do with looted armor?
Would you use some cloth strap the greaves that are just a bit too big for you, since the dead guy you stole it from only seemed like your ''size''...?

So I am not thinking fashion customization but functional one...

Thinking out loud, too many questions (don't have to answer them), I know...but what do you think? I would like to see creativity...

Like those who made this little gem for example were...

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/1fa95c47147b49...CYT0YF.jpg

Regards!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I happen to have some photos from two of my helmets. They match on of your requested photos.

[attachment=10707]10620769_10203963195416722_4291853173643613098_n_2014-09-08.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=10708]DSC04919_2014-09-08.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=10709]DSC04920.JPG[/attachment]

There needs to be much care when we try to make conclusions from our reconstructions. The basic problem is that our reconstructions are seldom "accurate enough". An item has to be correctly shaped, but also corectly weighed too, and to fit the individual as tightly or loosely as it fitted the ancient man, something we will never know. You will be surprized when you see an ancient helmet up close, with how small they are. Were the ancients so small? Did they have so small heads? Did their helmets fit them so tightly, and didn't they need to use paddings, if not for better fit, at least for protection?

That said, we know that they did use padding SOME times under their helmets, in the form of caps (That plato says were made of braided straw) and some vases show a thin band wrapped around the forehead, presumably to make the helmet fit better.
There are also helmets and cuirasses with sighns of repair, some times to make the cuirasses wider (added peaces of metal in the sides). And a small amount of greaveas have holes or rings in the back. But both these alterations all come from Italian finds, and one would think that they also match a difference of culture and even level of workmanship.
Similarly, hellenistic greaves some times had leather bands tied around the leg, under the knee and over the ankle. These are shown both in sculpture and the archeological record (stain of the corroded leather on the greave). This should again be attributed to a change in fashion though, since otherwise the greaves were made in the same way as the earlier classical greaves, and even matched better the musculature of the individual (no stylized muscles).

I didn't have a problem with my corinthian helmet, even without strapping under the chin. It fits nicely, and when the helmet moved from a blow or movement, it always sat back correctly on my head. However now that i have made the high crest the center of balance has moved up, and thus the helmet feels more woby. It still sits back correctly, but it moves more. I will either have to find a way to add a strap though the holes i have already made, or wrap a band around my forehead like the vases show. Or both.

Greaves are the trickiest. Owners of good greaves (not that many) will tell you that they have no problems with their greaves chaffing their legs. They do experience a slipping down of the greave in exceptionally violent movement though. The ancients did have a device that prevented this efect, and whilst not so complicated, it still wasn't the same as the crude piece of fabric that many add around their ankles. This device, which i have reconstructed, and Chris Cameron has used with his greaves with success, prevented the greave from slipping down, rather than padded an already slipped greave. It was almost unnoticeable when the greave was on, but there are many depictions of it without the greaves.

Generally, experience has shown that when something is made as close as possible to the ancient artifacts then most problems with comfort and functionality are solved. An example are the porpakes, and you will find some recent threads discussing this matter.

Khaire
Giannis

[Prowler0508]

Hey, thanks! Great!Wonderfull helm btw (I already saved the first one earlier ). I need angles as an artist btw...So, the more angles and different helmets, the better (they don't even have to be close ups).

So anyone is welcome to contribute :wink:

You are right on modern reconstructions. From all the research I have done, and my own experience, I think I learned where to place modern reconstructions on some imaginary leader of reference...

As for helmet size - it is always a ashocker. I used to collect modern helmets. They are nothing close to being close fitting, and I think that is a part of where our shock comes from. The other part of course being parallels with medieval times, and their comparatively huge helms. I was shocked when I first saw a real corinthian shell. But, same happened with close fitting armor from any era.

Take away the hair, the ears, the beard...our skulls are really not that large (I held many). It is just a perception. So Greeks certainly had the same bodies, just different military ''fashion''.

You gave me valuable info on those matters. I also thought Greeks would take care of most of the usual military equipment problems in pre production, in ordering process - that is why I mentioned looted armor. Certainly many armor pieces came that way. So, if I understood, you would take it to bronzesmith to ''fix it''.

Btw, where can I see that device for greaves you mentioned please? It seems very interesting...

Thanks

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hello. Here is one of the many depictions of the thing, and below my reconstruction.

[attachment=10772]301465_2250343414565_6428987_n.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=10773]321465_2250346214635_5147156_n.jpg[/attachment]
Khaire
Giannis