Number of legions at Zama

[Nick the Noodle]

Hi Hanny

You are right, and I may just have to read Engles again, along with a few dozen other works.

However, what i will point out is that several Napoleonic corps being 'only' 10-15 miles apart is far. A Roman Legion, on a good Roman road, can travel 14 miles in a day on average. We know this because Roman forts are 14 miles apart. No pre gunpowder army is more organised than a Roman legion.

Napoleonic Corps are effectively alone for supply and foraging, even if only 10 miles apart.

[Hanny]

Hi Nick
Missed posting Sheans work on HB mules, note table 1 to 5 with reference to army size of 136 k down to 36k to show how it was logistcly supported by moving onto supply rather than being pushed forward by supply..
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4436417?rea...b_contents

Here is Roth logistics study for Rome, http://www.legioxxirapax.com/zasoby/The_...235AD).pdf

Your further point has nothing to do with pop numbers of the sq miles moved over in a days march, which is spread over any forces moving over that region and requiring it, so is not relavent, and i just pointed out you cant just buy or confiscate munitions, power, cartridges, cannon balls etc, you have to have it come from a base of supply which for all of Nappys campaigns meant 00s of miles from where it was consumed, munition logistics in Nappys age was totaly different from alexander period. Alexander slingers took lead ingots with them to cast in shot, when needed, we know from archeology where Alexander ore was mined and where it ended up as shot. We know which of Nappys magazines pushed munitions to the corps requiring it.

[Hanny]

 

Do people actually believe the ancient historians were utilizing such detailed records that include the casualty figures? I have found nothing to support this. Even the Roman replacement system, as can be found in Livy’s campaigns of 192 BC, to the Third Macedonian War, of which there are dozens and dozens of examples, just follow the Roman standardized system of replacement. Livy does say these troops were replacing the older troops. This should not be interpreted to be the triarii, but the oldest troops in each property class of which there are five property classes to a legion.

https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/po...L_TEXT.PDF

See chapter detailing counting the dead and Roman admin for retiring veterans, laws for giving the senate the wrong casualty figures etc.

[Hanny]

So how safe is it now to use Caesar’s fleet of 80 ships for two legions as a comparison for Scipio’s fleet of 204 BC?

Plutarch (Pompey 11 2) has Pompey, with a fleet of 120 warships, and 800 transports conveying six full legions to Africa (1). Appian (BC 5 98) has Lepidus with a fleet of 70 warships and 1,000 transports, conveying 12 legions and 500 Numidian cavalry. (2)Here we find 6 legions require 120 warships and 800 transports, while 12 legions require 70 warships and 1,000 transports, a disparity of 50 warships and 200 transports. If six legions require 800 transports, then surely 12 legions would require 1,600 transports?

In 54 BC, Caesar has 5 legions and 2,000 cavalry conveyed to over 800 ships including those built by individuals.(4) This would allocate each legion 160 ships. Pompey needs 800 transports for six legions, whereas Caesar needs 800 transports for five legions.

In 55 BC, Caesar (BG 4 22) (BG 4 28) has about 80 ships and 18 horse transports conveying over two legions to Britain.(3)Caesar (BG 4 37) also mentions from two ships about 300 soldiers were drawn. 80 ships multiplied by 300 soldiers per ship would produce 24,000 soldiers. 80 ships multiplied by the lower figure of 200 soldiers per ship would produce 16,000 soldiers. Both figures do not conform to an army of two legions (around 10,000 men). However, to upset the apple cart, in 37 BC, Appian (The Civil War 5 25) has Murcus joined Sextius Pompeius’ with two legions and 80 ships, which concurs with Caesar. Appian (The Civil War 5 26) has Domitius Ahenobarbus with two legions and 70 ships.(5) In 25/26 BC, Strabo (16 4 23) has Aelius Gallus sailed to Arabia Felix with no less than 80 biremes, triremes and phaseloi ships, 130 transports to convey about 10,000 Roman infantry, 500 Jews and 1,000 Nabataeans.(6) The 10,000 Roman infantry would equate to two legions, with the total of 11,500 men requiring 210 vessels.

1 30000/920=32 a ship.
2 60500/1070 =56
3 27000/800=33
4 12000/98=122
5 10000/70=142
611500/210=154

7 is Scipio 40 warships and 400 transports. 27200/400=68 a transport ship. 4 is Caeser, 12000/98=122 a ship.

Warship 15t cargo capacity.Transport 80t capacity. Combined mount of tonnage used for manpower. 210lbs a man.
1 5%
2 8%
4 2%
3 16%
5 18%
6 9%
7 10%.

They are all on transport fleets.
1 4t of manpower a ship.
2 6t
4 13t
4 4t
5 15t
6 9t
7 7t


So the comparison between Caeser  and Scipio is that Caeser used 12 t a ship expedition 1, and 4 t a ship expedition 2, while scipio used 7 t a ship. Caeser had 33 manpower a ship expedition 1 and 122 expedition 2, Scipio 154 a ship.

Its not safe for you bacause you dont know what to count or how to count it.