Gate Widths of Legionary Forts

[Simplex]

Hi,
.......I know I'm quite late for this ( as most of the time :whistle: )
1. Thomas Aumüller in his doctorate Thesis of 2002:
Die Porta Praetoria und die Befestigung des Legionslagers in Regensburg / Porta Pretoria and the fortifications of the legionary camp at Regensburg
https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/601014/601014.pdf
On page 229 he states this:
......Dass auch hier eine Gestaltung mit gut teilbaren Maßeinheiten geplant war, könnte neben der Stärke des Torbogens von 3½ Fuß (29,71) die Breite der Tordurchfahrt zeigen: sie ist mit etwa 4.00 m ziemlich genau zu messen, was in 13½ Fuß (29,62) bzw. besser 9 Ellen aufgeteilt werden kann. ......
As the depth of the gate's arch of 3 1/2 ft (29,71cm) und the width of the gates passageway -- measuring quite exactly for 4,00 metres, making for 13 1/2 feet or, better, 9 ells/yards could Show, the design had been planned in well-divideable measuring-units ....
(O.K. -- there are times when my Job sucks out my Brains -- so please forgive that awkward Translation...)
2. The book "Römische Wehrbauten--Befund und Rekonstruktion"/Roman Fortifications -- Findings And Reconstruction" does not help any further, since it's Focus is on the Limes forts. Aumüller's works , however, is also cited herein.
3. The Austrian Website on Vindobona also "would not contribute". :unsure:
4. The book about the excavations at the southern gate of the legionary camp at Vindonissa(Windisch/CH) seems to deal with ist reconstruction around pp278ff. This part, however, has not been included in the parts available online.
https://www.ag.ch/de/bks/kultur/archaeol...online.jsp
For now

Greez

Simplex

[Mark Hygate]

Arrian's 4 men wide, however, I see as a straight result of his decision to adopt a less deep formation.

You're not going with Wheeler's suggestion of a change in contubernium size - and corresponding change in march and deployment - between the 1st and 2nd centuries then? ;-)

No, I believe not. In fact I'm plumping for no change in 'as designed' (under-strength not applying) century size from 3rd BC (as Polybius describes) until the break-up/down of the empire and the subsequent 'forgetfulness' that seems to have occurred by the time of the Byzantine manuals.

In both Josephus' and Arrian's detail I think there is a much simpler answer. I'd also note that I would expect flank guards to be both formed units and at a considerable distance from the main column to then be effective.

That said, I would consider that detaching troops from the centuries to go forward and lay out the next camp (as per Josephus) could have been replaced by a different system when (mostly) full legions stopped marching together on campaign and the use of legionary detachments (vexillatio's) became more common.

That's not one for this thread though. :wink:

[antiochus]

Mark wrote:
In both Josephus' and Arrian's detail I think there is a much simpler answer. I'd also note that I would expect flank guards to be both formed units and at a considerable distance from the main column to then be effective.

At (4) and (9) of Arrian’s expedition against the Alans he mentions flank guards deployed in a single line for the infantry. This would give the column a depth of six men (four infantry and two horses). This would indicate the army is in open terrain, and the flank guards marching some distance from the infantry. I believe Josephus’ six men wide formation is the same as the above. Besides Vegetius, what other references are there to six deep formations in the primary sources?

[Gunthamund Hasding]

sorry to intervene in your dreams gentlemen but I don't think that how big a legions fort gate is has to do with the marching of the miles in or out, if you think about an march camp yes, unless in enemy territory I don't think that the romans marched if nice formations as out reenactors are doing it, they drilled but they had drill grounds for this. I think that the forts had small gates being much better defendable then the large ones. one ox cart in and one out is enough. I have some reports about forts in Dacia Porolissensis will take a look when at home and will give you some measurements.

[PhilusEstilius]

I would have to agree that fort gates do not dictate how many soldiers would march abreast it has more to do with the width of Roman roads, many Roman roads I have walked along are at times only 4 to 5 meters wide and also many have a fair amount of camber to them as well such as the one I have shown earlier.

[Gunthamund Hasding]

well I did checked some numbers they from Dacia Porolissensis
be aware not from Legionary forts but from cohors equitate,

I have a 4.25 m of porta Pretoria at Romanasi(rest N.N.)
I have a 4 m porta decumana an 4+3 m porta Pretoria at another one 8so it had 2 openings) the porta principalis sinistra is about the same (3.8+3) at Buciumi

I will have to find out where the books for Potaissa are where the XIII Gemina was stationed