Question about Theodosius Obelisk Base

[Koyuncu]

Hi

Is there any information about who were those ambassadors in front of Emperor? Any ideas?



Also, who do you think those with beard and mustache standing near Emperor?







Thanks in advance.

[ValentinianVictrix]

They are most likely depictions of the Goths who Theodosius defeated.

[Urselius]

Of the kneeling figures, those to the right have shaggy-looking coats slung over their backs and are probably Germans of some kind, Some of those to the left wear pointed 'Phrygian caps' and are probably Persians.

[Nathan Ross]

who do you think those with beard and mustache standing near Emperor?

The armed men with the neck torques standing in the rear row would probably be members of the protectores divi lateris - literally 'protectors of the sacred flank'. Many of them by this date were recruited from the Germanic peoples, which explains the hairstyles and beards.

The bearded men in the front row could be officials of the imperial consistorium - the imperial council - or members of the Constantinople senate, perhaps.

[Urselius]

Of the guardsmen, the shaven ones are possibly young rankers with the bearded ones depicted as older men, veterans or possibly officers. We know that one writer, some decades later than Theodosius, criticised young Romans for adopting Hunnic hairstyles and clothing, so using hairstyles alone to assign nationality is risky.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Hunnic Hairstyles were basically "Mullets." Aetius probably wore one.

[Nathan Ross]

using hairstyles alone to assign nationality is risky.

Certainly. It was probably a fashion thing, among soldiers in particular perhaps, but the style may have originally come from the Germanic world. We even see later emperors adopting it...

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Well, we know what the "Hunnic hairstyle" was via Procopius, who mentions it in his secret history when discussing court dress, and also when he describes the Avars in which he says they are "like the Huns in every manner but for their hair."

However, this was only the beginning of real Hunnic influence in the Roman empire. We don't see mercenaries used in any significant numbers until Theodosius, so it is unlikely that the hairstyle is a Hunnic influence, or that these men are Huns. I would not even remotely support that claim until the time of Aetius, and even then it would be rather exclusive to the Western Empire (who loved their Huns and Alans).

[Nathan Ross]

it is unlikely that the hairstyle is a Hunnic influence

Very. If the Missorium of Kerch actually does depict Constantius II, as is often claimed, then this long 'page boy' hairstyle for guardsmen dates back to the mid 4th century at least, long before the arrival of the Huns:



(this missorium is also the earliest pictoral evidence for the use of the chi-rho on a shield, of course)

Considering the numbers of Germanic soldiers who seem to have been recruited into the various imperial guard corps in the 4th century, I'd say it highly likely originated as a Gothic, Frankish or Alamannic* look.

*Or even Burgundian - like the unfortunate Hariulfus, son of Hanhavaldus regalis gentis Burgundionum, who died as a protectore at Trier aged only 20... (CIL 13, 3682)!

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Forget the Chi-Rho, the shield at the bottom is seen all the time in later "Byzantine" art.

[Urselius]

The shield on the ground is an enemy shield, being trampled by the victorious emperor. A head of Constantine the Great shows a similar hairstyle - not as extreme admittedly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin...latino.JPG

The long-at-the-back style seems to have had quite an extended history, perhaps it dates to Constantine's use of wigs later in his life - much as the bald Louis IV started over a century of wig wearing in Europe.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I'm just interested because the Romans seem to have adopted that shield pattern.

[ValentinianVictrix]

I believe the 'Page Boy' type hairstyle came about due to contact with the Goths, not with the Huns. Constantius II defeated the Goths in a massive battle whilst he was Caesar to Constantine the Great. As a result of this battle Constantine placed a treaty upon the Goths to supply manpower to the army. Jordanes claimed Constantine employed 40,000 Goths before his death. An exaggeration no doubt but Contantine was recruiting amoungst the Goths for his invasion of Sassanid Persia. Constantius, when Emperor called upon the Goths several times for assistance and may have had Goth's in his army which defeated Magnentius. Julian had Goth's in his army that invaded Sassanid Persia and Valens recruited Goths before they rebelled in 376.

I'm not sure why Sassanid's would be portrayed on the Theodosius monument because as far as I am aware he was not troubled by them during his reign as Sharpur II died in 379 and the Sassanids became quiet for a number of years after Sharpur's death. Phyrgian caps were worn by Goths and also by Roman troops probably recruited from the Germanics. I serously doubt that the figures on the monument that cannot be attributed to 'Roman' troops are anything other than Goths.

[Urselius]

There is no need for a recent Persian war to have happened for Persians to be portrayed in Roman imperial iconography, it was a stock image. There were a number of Persian embassies in Theodosius' reign. If you notice, the above reliefs are not the portrayal of a military triumph, but of the Emperor as ruler, rather than general. Theodosius is in council receiving gifts, probably in the context of embassies. Also, if only Goths are being portrayed, why are the two groups shown wearing mutually differentiated clothing and headgear?

[ValentinianVictrix]

I would agree with you Martin were it not for the fact that very similar scenes are depicted in the pen & ink drawings of the Column of Arcadius. The Goths there are depicted wearing mail hauberks and have 'page boy' hair styles or they are wearing tunics and long trousers wearing Phyrgian style caps. We know that monument had nothing at all to do with the Sassanids, erected as it were to commemorate the Roman victory over Gainas and his Goths in 400AD.