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Your aspis and you, my comfort issue.
#1
Greetings! New to the forum, very big fan of and have a great interest in, ancient Greek hoplitic warfare. I've just received this very very lovely aspis replica from the KultofAthena site. - http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?...ite+Shield

To my amazement it came with the inner cording, and I have since attached lots of makeshift material inside the porpax and have created a makeshift antilabe secondary grip with some twisted hemp rope.

I have an issue of comfort! The shield is beautiful, even unpainted, and feels wonderful save for a few things! The sheer weight of the wood, in my grip, presses very uncomfortably on the top of my left fore-arm with the assistance of gravity. The pretty brass or bronze, (I think it's brass) porpax does bend outward on both of its' edges, so it doesn't 'bite' into my fore-arm, but it's still extremely uncomfortable to hold to a certain degree, and exacerbated for any duration of length. I've immediately adapted the porpax slightly with lengths of fabric belts I've had spares of, though it's not the final answer to the issue.

My questions simply are, what kinds of materials should I use to make the inside of the shield more comfortable on my shoulder? And much more pressing of an issue, I believe the porpax should fit very snugly around my fore-arm, and certainly more comfortably than the brass alone allows, (it's very painful nakedly equipped), so, what materials might I use, especially within the realms of historical accuracy. Where might I get them, and how might I apply them?

I've heard of felt? Or animal pelts?

Thank you very much in advance. :oops:
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#2
Hello and welcome to the forum!
I'm afraid there is not much you can do about the shoulder issue, since it is cause i believe by the excess weight of the reconstructed shield compared to the originals. It is believed that the original shields weighed as much as three or four kilos less than your shield, and as you can imagine this could solve your problem. However, if at some point you plant to obtain or make armour, the shield can rest on the shoulder guard and make it more comfortable.

The porpax SHOULD be fitted with a wooden core, and that should be lined in leather, and altogether fit around your arm snugly. The evidence shows that the bronze porpakes we now see on museums were nothing more than the shell of what was the actual porpax, which was made of wood, in a similar way as the shield was made of wood and covered some times in bronze. So i guess you can make your porpax more accurate and more comfortable in a not-so-easy way, but it's better than having to do something inaccurate!

Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#3
Thank you very much Giannis! That is both relieving and enlightening to know. I've been curious because twice I've seen images of re-enactors with what looks like a very furry (imaginably more comfortable) filler of sorts placed into their central porpax, and I've seen a few also with nothing inside of it at all. I had heard that the aspis may have been far lighter than what I've gotten from this reconstruction indeed. I had weighed it recently and it was nearly 24 pounds! I'm willing to accept that it's probably heavier than it should be, but as is, the porpax right now is quite painful on the fore-arm. Or was, rather, prior to my make-shift comfort materials. It must pain re-enactors who carry something of similar weight without such attachments, which I've seen before, too.

A pity if like me, they might be unaware that they could go ahead and add to the naked bronze so it's not such a crushing force on their arms.

Very good news this has been for me. And yet, I wouldn't quite know how to affix a wooden core, where to get one or how to shape it exactly. I've taken part in no construction whatsoever, personally, so much as on-hand improvisation. I don't necessarily intend to re-enact or create a full panoply so much as just an accurate and functional aspis. (Although I'd love a good corinthian, at this point.)

I was considering figuring out some way to have someone forge a nice bronze cover for it, but I'm unaware of the costs, and to re-iterate, precisely how to affix it. So sadly, I might stop short on finding a nice way to paint the outside, finding something to cover the inside of it in, then and most important to actually using it, something to make this porpax more comfortable. It definitely stands to reason that a large porpax would leave the fore-arm too much room, and would press against it uncomfortably.

I notice this Manning Imperial model has something in the porpax, though it was quite out of my spending range.

http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue...-aspis/614

Well, failing wood, is there some other material I can cobble up and put to use that's at the least, historically accurate and readily available?

My best regards, thank you again for the responses.
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#4
Hello Janas!

I too first purchased a DSC aspis from Kult of Athena, so you have my condolences. :-D

Kidding aside, there are several issues with these shields, one is the weight, as you well know, this is due to the nature of the construction (stacked plywood rings), another is the overall diameter, mine is 38 3/8" and that is much too large (unless your a very big guy, I am not). Not much you can do about the weight and diameter, but you can line the porpax, as Giannis pointed out above, a wooden core would be historically accurate, but you can also line the porpax with fleece, my newest shield is a custom made piece, made from poplar and weighing 13 lbs and 32" in diameter (as opposed to the 25 lb/383/8" DSC) and the porpax is lined in fleece and a little smaller than the DSC porpax so it fits my forearm a bit tighter, that makes a huge difference in comfort. I'll post a couple of photos below so you can see how the porpax is lined, these are leather strips wrapping the edges, that too helps a lot with comfort.


[attachment=10478]Porpax.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=10479]Porpax2.jpg[/attachment]


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_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#5
Janas, facing a shield in bronze is one of the most difficult tasks for an experienced armourer, and whilst there are at least a couple armourers that can do it very well (manning imperial is one of them), the ancient method of doing it is still somewhat unknown. The ancients used very thin sheet that added very little to the weight and its purposes was mainly structural than protective. In fact it is even possible that a bronze cover weighed less than the two layers of fabric and stucco that the other shields had.

The way to secure a wooden core would be to drill holes in the perimeter of the porpax. right on the edge that is flared out, and nail the wood underneath.
The way to shape the wood would be the make the inside fit your arm as best as possible, and the outside to fit the bronze as best as possible. Leave some room for a leather lining on the inside, and you have a shield that sticks to your arm and moves with your arm without effort.

An alternative would be to add layers of leather until it fits your arm

The shield from manning imperial that you posted was created after discussions i had with Craig about this type of porpax and how they probably had a leather body fixed to them. I admit that this is what i believed at the time, but later we found out that many porpakes have big nails attached to them that show the actual thickness of the wood, and a number of them even had pieces of wood still attached around these nails.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#6
Ahh, very well. Thank you again for your responses. I had heard that 16 pounds was a bit more reasonable and perhaps more realistically realized than something as heavy as mine. :lol:

I'm certainly not a big person either, and I have read that 32'' was the diameter of some of the smallest aspides ever found, and 40'' was about the largest. Mine is 38'' on the nose, which is two inches larger than average sizes I'd say. The weight is the bigger issue for me, but not impossible to deal with.

That is a very lovely porpax, Dithyrambus. At 16 pounds I'm sure it's much more manageable. May I ask how much it cost to have it custom-made?

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I see, Giannis. A bronze covering, then, is far out of my monetary capacity most likely. I will have to count my blessings and look toward getting some leather, fleece, and/or felt and putting it to good use. May I ask how one would append layers of leather onto the inside of the porpax, or either material onto the inside of the aspis itself? Might it be a kind of glue? If so, I'm curious what would be the best to work with.

-

I have another question, though I should probably create a new thread as it's unrelated to aspis construction.
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#7
Glue is one way, and perhaps the easiest. If i were to do it i would probably use milk glue (there are many recipes on the internet) also know as casein glue, and then stitch it or nail it on the edges. This secondary security might not be necessary though.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#8
Quote:Ahh, very well. Thank you again for your responses. I had heard that 16 pounds was a bit more reasonable and perhaps more realistically realized than something as heavy as mine. :lol:

I'm certainly not a big person either, and I have read that 32'' was the diameter of some of the smallest aspides ever found, and 40'' was about the largest. Mine is 38'' on the nose, which is two inches larger than average sizes I'd say. The weight is the bigger issue for me, but not impossible to deal with.

That is a very lovely porpax, Dithyrambus. At 16 pounds I'm sure it's much more manageable. May I ask how much it cost to have it custom-made?

-
I see, Giannis. A bronze covering, then, is far out of my monetary capacity most likely. I will have to count my blessings and look toward getting some leather, fleece, and/or felt and putting it to good use. May I ask how one would append layers of leather onto the inside of the porpax, or either material onto the inside of the aspis itself? Might it be a kind of glue? If so, I'm curious what would be the best to work with.

-

I have another question, though I should probably create a new thread as it's unrelated to aspis construction.

Hi Janas, my shield actually weighs 13 pounds, the overall dimensions are based on an aspis in the Vatican museum and compared with my DSC shield, well, there is no comparison in terms of weight, comfort and overall quality. As for cost, you would need to contact Loricatus (UK) for a quote as the price of materials can fluctuate, and cost is also affected by personal design choices. :-)

http://www.loricatus.co.uk/index.php?c=Home
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#9
Here is photos of wooden porpax. And wooden shield core less than 4 kg.


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Mikko Sinkkonen
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#10
This shield is very good and very accurate. The porpax too. That is exactly what i'm trying to explain.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#11
Exceptional examples. Thank you all again. My apologies for that error in weight, Dithyrambus. I had a number I had heard of in mind when I wrote that, despite having read what you wrote. You've all been pretty helpful.

It's a shame about the weight of the shield I have now (and size, to a degree), though I still haven't the tools or know-how to do much wood-working, (aside from hacking at things with an axe and very amateur whittling), largely I opted for the KultofAthena model due to availability and price range. At the least I feel like 'finishing' this one so to speak, before I venture out for another one that's perhaps more comfortable, more accurate, or both.
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#12
[Image: photo.php?fbid=10152925817351204&l=381f112b24]

This is my bronze porpax lined in leather, as per one at Olympia. This is an earlier style than the superb examples Mikko is making (above on this thread). Here's I'm aiming for the Chigi vase style.

I do a lot of WMA (sword stuff) and my only comment is--I've worn this aspis all day (days in a row, actually) and it weighs about 10 pounds. More than that is--terrible... Smile You want the porpax to fit the muscle of your forearm really well--not too tight, not too lose--so that if you take your hand out of the antelabe, the shield still moves with your arm, no rocking, no biting in at the corners. Fur lining (I did that too!) is not so fun in Greece... in the heat...
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#13
What a lovely shield! The interior does indeed look a lot like the Chigi examples, and at ten pounds it seems a very reasonable weight. I've been working with mine as it stands, painting the interior (so far), gluing some layers of fleece around the porpax for temporary comfort and adding strips of leather to the inside behind the antilabe and the inner roofing if you will, where the shoulder would rest to resist chafing.

What a difference that might be, truthfully I've gotten used to this KultofAthena model and this is a little over twenty pounds. Ten pounds or less is significantly lighter, I'm curious if there would be any difference in long-term durability between such different models or if this big lug is truly an overweight imitator! Confusedmile:

I'd love to have a lighter, more realistic model (as much as current understanding allows anyway) as possible some day.

[attachment=11160]141112_514.jpg[/attachment] (Porpax is looking ugly, though it's certainly a work in progress)

Thanks for responding. Confusedmile:


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