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Turmae: Troop or Squadron
#1
Title says it all. What's the best way to describe a Roman cavalry Turmae? Troop or squadron. I've notice both are used in non-fiction and fiction. What says RAT?
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#2
I have come to think of the turma as closest to troop.

Possibly then considering 2 turmae as a squadron, with the further possibility that 2 turmae form a cuneus.

That would leave an ala to be translated as regiment. I have seen turma translated as both troop and squadron, but also ala rendered as squadron.
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#3
Quote:Possibly then considering 2 turma as a squadron, with the further possibility that 2 turma form a cuneus.

Symmachus references a Hunnic Cuneus being 240 men (although it would vary in size from group to group). The Romans presumably adopted the Cuneus cavalry structure from the Huns, so I'd imagine it would be larger than 64 men. Even the oxyrhynchus papyrii give cavalry units larger than 100 men.
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#4
Quote:Troop or squadron.

Both are subunits of a cavalry regiment, so if you're calling an ala a 'regiment' then either would do, so long as you're consistent. But I think it's probably better to call a turma a turma... ;-)


Quote:The Romans presumably adopted the Cuneus cavalry structure from the Huns

There are references to cavalry cunei dating back to Alexander Severus, when the Huns were still a long way away!... But it's a very mutable term, it seems - as the reference to Symmachus shows, it could apparently be used to describe any group of cavalry. Not unlike numerus with infantry, in fact...
Nathan Ross
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#5
It is likely. It may have been adopted from the Sarmatians, as the Huns and Sarmatians probably had a similar structure.
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#6
Quote:
Bryan post=357701 Wrote:Troop or squadron.

Both are subunits of a cavalry regiment, so if you're calling an ala a 'regiment' then either would do, so long as you're consistent. But I think it's probably better to call a turma a turma... ;-)

In many ways, especially non fiction scholarly history, I'd say your last statement is true. But isn't the frequent bombardment of non-English terms in fictional works sometimes a little too much? I don't mean the occasional use of a Latin word to describe something, such as an introductory use of the word, or even when using a word that doesn't transition well over, such as virtus, century, or legion. But am I the only one that gets annoyed, for example, when novelists use different words to describe the same thing, such as swords and shields?
"The Gaul moved his shield and swung his broad cutting sword, but the Roman blocked the slice with his scutum and gutted him with his gladius." This type of writing drives me nuts. I can't be the only one that get aggravated when a historical novel turns into a lesson in Greek or Latin.

I think cavalry descriptors are generally so obscure to the average person that words like troop and squadron can be used. Also, they are so commonly used, even in nonfiction historical works. I just don't know whether a turmae could best be described as a squadron or as a troop. If squadron, then the 10 horse sub units can be a troop. But what would you call the full collection of Roman cavalry, with all the turmae added up? Regiment is too specific to the modern era I think. If a turmae is called a troop, what would you call the subunits of 10 within a turmae?

Possibility: Full Roman contingent of citizen cavalry within a Legion is a squadron, then a turmae is a troop, and a decurion commands a "Section of ten"
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#7
Quote: Regiment is too specific to the modern era I think. If a turmae is called a troop, what would you call the subunits of 10 within a turmae?

I agree with Nathan and if you consider Regiment too specific to the modern era, what are squadron and troop? The largest cavalry formed unit was an ala; their subdivision was a turma. They are the Latin terms used in their context, not a translation which mean different things in our context.

I think it is clear they were fluid groups of men and horses commanded by a decurion and every now and then a "Master of Horse" like Mark Antony (or should that be Marcus Antonius?!) or a Prefect.

(And yes, I find the over use of the Latin terms in novels irritating to the point of stopping me reading the book. In this case, however, it is not a novel and therefore the Latin terms for their cavalry do not need translating IMO).
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#8
I am about to get on my hobby-horse here. Can we please try not to confuse singulars and plurals? Turma (sing.), turmae (plur.); ala (sing.), alae (plur.).
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#9
Quote:I think cavalry descriptors are generally so obscure to the average person that words like troop and squadron can be used.

But, ironically, the average modern reader is unlikely to know exactly what you mean by a troop or squadron either! If you just want a term for a subunit of horsemen, why not use the original?

"the decurion galloped over the hill, followed by his turma of horsemen".

"the troop leader galloped over the hill, followed by his troop of horsemen".

You could say 'of thirty horsemen' if you want to be specific. Not that we're sure how many men were in a turma anyway... But that would cover it, and your reader is now alerted to what the word means.


Quote:I find the over use of the Latin terms in novels irritating to the point of stopping me reading the book.

It does get a bit silly at times. But the popularity of Harry Sidebottom suggests that it's not an absolute killer (although he has toned down the latinism in his recent books). Christian Cameron uses stacks of Greek words, and even 'Scythian' terms, and it works fine because he does it with confidence and authority. I think the worst offenders are novelists trying to cover up their lack of understanding by sprinkling their stories with undigested latin terms, to fake an appearance of authenticity...
Nathan Ross
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#10
Quote:I think it is clear they were fluid groups of men and horses commanded by a decurion and every now and then a "Master of Horse" like Mark Antony (or should that be Marcus Antonius?!) or a Prefect.
That's presumably 'fluid' in the sense that nobody can agree how many men* there were in a turma or whether to count the decurio! It is of course environmentally sounder (fewer trees die, less electricity needs to be generated) just to use 'ala' rather than 'cavalry regiment'. :-)

Mike Bishop

* I am shamelessly using 'men' instead of equites; I do hope nobody minds ;-)
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#11
Quote: That's presumably 'fluid' in the sense that nobody can agree how many men* there were in a turma or whether to count the decurio!

Bingo!
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#12
Quote:

It does get a bit silly at times. But the popularity of Harry Sidebottom suggests that it's not an absolute killer (although he has toned down the latinism in his recent books). Christian Cameron uses stacks of Greek words, and even 'Scythian' terms, and it works fine because he does it with confidence and authority. I think the worst offenders are novelists trying to cover up their lack of understanding by sprinkling their stories with undigested latin terms, to fake an appearance of authenticity...

Nope; it still irritates me. I don't like feeling patronised when I read and most of the time it is pretentious - "aren't I clever I know more than you"

But then, I could never see why Pressfields books were popular. Gates of Fires is no where near as good as Tell Them in Sparta (Roderick Milton).
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#13
Quote:I agree with Nathan and if you consider Regiment too specific to the modern era, what are squadron and troop? The largest cavalry formed unit was an ala; their subdivision was a turma. They are the Latin terms used in their context, not a translation which mean different things in our context.

Nathon Ross wrote:
But, ironically, the average modern reader is unlikely to know exactly what you mean by a troop or squadron either! If you just want a term for a subunit of horsemen, why not use the original?

I think the difficultly I have is that nationally, units or pieces of equipment of similar size are described in multiple non-English word and that it would be easier for the reader if an English word is substituted whenever possible.

Say Roman horse are being chased by an equal number of Macedonian horsemen. Which sounds better for a novel:

A. "The ten Roman turma were almost ridden down by the Macedonian Ila, but were saved by the sudden appearance of a Roman ala quingenaria."

B. "The Roman squadron was almost almost ridden down by the Macedonian squadron, but were saved by the sudden appearance of a Roman regiment of cavalry."

C. "The 300 Roman horsmen were almost ridden down by the 300 Macedonian horsemen, but were saved by the sudden appearance of 500 Roman horse."

All of which probably could accurately be labeled as other units. (And yes, I find the over use of the Latin terms in novels irritating to the point of stopping me reading the book. In this case, however, it is not a novel and therefore the Latin terms for their cavalry do not need translating IMO).

But what about in novels? What's your opinion on using Latin or other non-English terms?

Renatus wrote:
I am about to get on my hobby-horse here. Can we please try not to confuse singulars and plurals? Turma (sing.), turmae (plur.); ala (sing.), alae (plur.).

You're absolutely right but still, I picture you as a centurion with a sword to my throat making me write out Romani ite domum a thousand times.
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#14
I agree with everyone who dislikes the patronizing use of Latin/Greek/etc. in novels; it irks me as well. (After all, if I wanted a technically correct account I wouldn't be reading a novel, now would I?) As far as referring to turmae as troops or squadrons, I'm in agreement with Bryan and offer the following:

1. A regiment is intended to be a stand-alone unit, so doesn't really commend itself to a description of a legionary cavalry ala, which was a support unit for a legion. An ala quingenaria or other similar allied or auxiliary horse unit could be considered a regiment, however.

2. A squadron better fits the description and range of duties of a legionary ala, in my opinion. A turma of an ala could therefore be considered a troop. For the "section of ten" I would recommend squad or file. However, my knowledge of military nomenclature is generally limited to American and British conventions, so maybe this won't be acceptable to everyone.
Nate Hanawalt

"Bonum commune communitatis"
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#15
"The horsemen of the ala milliaria rode around around the wings of the infantry, nearly colliding with the ala dextra. Luckily, the lead turmae reigned in, turned and veering off further away, following the path of the Roman Ala quingenaria already in pursuit of the Gallic ala" :o

Even more confusing I think is the use of Ala as it not only refers to different sized cavalry units from any nation aligned with the Romans but also to a grouping of Latin/Italian Socii infantry operating in size, equipment, and organization near identically to the Roman Legion. So fictional novel-wise, my opinion is to not even use that word.
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