Papyrus cost

[Musivarius]

There is the idea that mosaicists had some sort of copy books to carry around and show clients their designs, no direct evidence has been found but obviously they would have been on perishable material.

My question is; do we know how expensive papyrus would have been around 1st - 2nd century AD? This seems to be the only material to create an illustrated manuscript from but I would have thought it would have been much too expensive.

[Vindex]

Not sure about the cost of papyrus, but how about something like vellum, or even goat (kid) skin? The fine skins would have been suitable and more plentiful, perhaps?

[Musivarius]

I'd always thought of vellum as an expensive item, if it was easy to get then wouldn't more be recorded?

[Lyceum]

It's worth pointing out that often our figures are shaky and not extant for every period, and that they would have been relative anyway depending on market supply/demand and then whatever the "shop" (Romans didn't have book shops in our sense) set as the price.

Parchment was unlikely to be used given the difficulty of ascertaining it and the actual cost. We know from a Diocletian era edict that the cost of 8 sheets was 40 denarii. We know from an earlier period getting a papyrus inscribed was cheaper than blank parchment. I think around 25 denarii for 100 lines. So, yeah, wow. 40. Denarri. For a blank roll of papyrus (what would a roll be? the equivalent of a scapus? so 20 sheets? At least by Plinian definitions) you're looking at one or two days wages in most of the empire. So not prohibitively expensive but not something everyone is going to be purchasing. Certainly much cheaper, and easily available, than other materials. There's no way a Mosaicist would be using parchment though. Papyrus is a possibility, even when you factor in prices of ink, but how likely is it? I'd wager word of mouth and perhaps even recreating samples with mosaica in a temporary fashion would be just as (more?) likely.

[Gunthamund Hasding]

Well exact what I wanted to say
there are some price limits imposed by Diocletian if I am to look for how much for something would be there

and a good source is here:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/NumisWi...n%20Prices

so it happens that I collect ancient coins so I am a member there and I saw this unusual translation, I would not put my hands in fire for it but if you want a better one here is the book

Corcoran, Simon (2000). The Empire of the Tetrarchs, Imperial Pronouncements and Government AD 284-324. Oxford University Press. pp. 440 pages. ISBN 0-19-815304-X

[Musivarius]

Thanks for that link, is that the full list or was there more?

[Gunthamund Hasding]

there is more but not online alas
is a very interesting subject is one of the edicts we really know it was found on different support (wood, papyrus, and stone)
should be something here but in latin
http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chrono..._ep_i.html

here is in German out of copyright
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nj...=1up;seq=9

and JSTOR you can have a free read of it for 14 days
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27...cess=false

[Musivarius]

Thanks, I'll have a look through those now.

[Crispianus]

I would suggest painted(encaustic wax/tempera) wooden boards for your full colour designs to show clients and a large wax covered board/tablet for working out designs... no evidence that I know off but it just seems sensible...

[Sean Manning]

A controversial example of a student sketchbook is the Artemidorus Papyrus.

A case which makes me wonder is the Darius Mosaic from Pompeii. The mosaicists got fourth-century material culture almost exactly right. We can only guess whether they had photographic memories, or brought the painting to Pompeii for copying, or worked from a sketchbook.

[Musivarius]

Ivor,
That sounds very feasible, one thing though, how resilient would the paint be? I imagine they would be handled carefully by the mosaicist anyway so the boards don't rub against each other but would the paint still last?

[Musivarius]

Sean,
Thanks for that link, I read it last night and that is a very good reference even with the controversy over the authenticity.
There are theories that the Alexander mosaic was bought from elsewhere but the general consensus is it is a copy from a painting.

[Crispianus]

Ivor,
That sounds very feasible, one thing though, how resilient would the paint be? I imagine they would be handled carefully by the mosaicist anyway so the boards don't rub against each other but would the paint still last?

This type of painting(tempera) has survived pretty well from medieval times (although its much more ancient) often painted on wood so I think its longevity is pretty good, I would suggest very thin boards perhaps from a light wood thats easily split into planks or use a very thin light plywood ( birch?) at least it wouldn't warp, with a light frame on the edges, this could be protected by a piece of cloth and multiples carried in something like a medieval budget to protect it from the elements.... it occurs to me that it could include elements that could then be arranged to create new variations on the overall designs...

My problem is that I've conditioned myself over the years to thinks in terms of "How did they do it".. and if it proves to be not possible for one reason or another such as Time(the big one), Materials or Cost, then to fall back on other methods that would create the same effect... so effectively you could use good quality modern paints such as acrylics in suitable colours....

The only book I have on tempera is "The Practice of Tempera Painting" by D.V.Thompson.jr. from Dover Publications originally Yale. I bought this from Kremer Pigmente.

[Musivarius]

Thanks, that's great, I should think I'll get one of those done for my display.