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Possible Roman Lamellar Armour - Need Advice.
#1
I am looking for more information on Late Roman lamellar armour and its designs, if possible. I am aware of the Palmyran statues with Greco/Roman lamellar cuirass but was wondering what other representations might exist of possible lamellar in a Roman context? Apart from the Duro-Europos cavalry thigh guards mentioned by Simon James, I am ignorant of lamellar armour.

Any references or links would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#2
Quote:I am looking for more information on Late Roman lamellar armour and its designs, if possible. I am aware of the Palmyran statues with Greco/Roman lamellar cuirass but was wondering what other representations might exist of possible lamellar in a Roman context? Apart from the Duro-Europos cavalry thigh guards mentioned by Simon James, I am ignorant of lamellar armour.

Any references or links would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Just to nitpick (as I am so known for!)
1) The Palmyrene gods probably represent a local style, not representative of the Roman sphere as a whole
2) The Dura thigh guards are most likely in fact Iranian horse neck armours (Simon James has made a fair few mistakes in his book - this one being the most repeated).

Do you have the book "Armour never wearies" by Timothy Dawson - it's specifically about lamellar in the western world.
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
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#3
Nitpick away! It's all a learning experience for me.

I don't have that book and will certainly look it up. I am aware of the local style and that is why I am interested in seeing other examples (if any) of possible Roman lamellar types. That way I can compare.

I wasn't aware that Simon James had erred with the lamellar pieces - again, thanks for bringing that up.

Thanks for your input, Nadeem.
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#4
Dawson's book is a good overview, but I disagree with it in parts when he covers Iran. I don't really know enough about Europe to comment on that. It is a good introduction.

Simon James has made several errors in attribution and identification of the pieces. The "thigh guards" are the most famous ones, but there are others too, such as the mace, which is the first that comes to mind. I have written a more detailed post about its errors, and also how Roman reenactors take it as gospel, elsewhere on RAT and on Facebook.
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
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#5
The book you mention is already on order from Amazon and was despatched today so I am looking forward to that.

I will look up your posts contra Simon James. It should be informative reading for me.
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#6
Quote:I have written a more detailed post about its errors
Could you give us a link to that?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#7
There is a considerable size difference between a human thigh and a horse's neck. I would have thought that there is not much likelihood of confusing an item made to fit one with an item made to fit the other.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#8
Yes, you would think so! I have no idea how James reached that conclusion.

Renatus, I think I covered some of it in a thread about maces, although there was a much larger post on Facebook. I can go through the book again and write a more comprehensive critique of it.
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
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#9
Quote: I can go through the book again and write a more comprehensive critique of it.

That would certainly be interesting to read. I think it is true that a number of people regard James's work, and particularly the Final Report, as entirely objective and definitive - whereas, of course, he relies as much upon the interpretation of often very fragmentary evidence as anybody else!

Regarding the original question - what is the earliest dated evidence for lamellar in the west then?
Nathan Ross
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#10
There's a guy in Legio XX that has a bit of Roman Lamellar that dates to the 3rd century IIRC.
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#11
Quote:Renatus, I think I covered some of it in a thread about maces, although there was a much larger post on Facebook. I can go through the book again and write a more comprehensive critique of it.
I've found the thread on 'Flanged Maces' but your post there says little more than that James makes mistakes. A comprehensive critique would be really useful.

As to the identification of the 'thigh guards', this is to be found in H. Russell Robinson's The Armour of Imperial Rome, although he cites as authority the Preliminary Report of the Sixth Season of excavations at Dura, so that may be where the identification originates.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
#12
Quote:he cites as authority the Preliminary Report of the Sixth Season of excavations at Dura, so that may be where the identification originates.

Yes, I think James too is, understandably given the volume of material he surveys, relying to a large extent on older interpretations. That can mean, perhaps, that he replicates a lot of the bias of older scholars, who wished to see Romans stretching to the horizon and would countenance no other origin for the objects they studied.

It can go the other way too: certain items, I think, were identified as 'Persian' because they didn't fit the accepted typology of 'Roman military equipment'. So, for example, the complete mail shirt found on the skeleton from the siege mine was believed to be Persian as it had a large trident design in copper links on the chest. James, I think, has more recently decided that this man might have been a Roman after all, although I don't know of his reasoning for this!

Anyway, back to the topic:


Quote:There's a guy in Legio XX that has a bit of Roman Lamellar that dates to the 3rd century IIRC.

He has it? As in owns it? Does he know where it comes from?
Nathan Ross
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#13
Yeah, there were a few items like that. When going through the book I categorised it as "probably Persian" and "probably not Persian."

Renatus, apologies, I thought that was it! Must be mis-remembering. I will go,through the book and see what I can write on it.
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
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#14
I have to admit, there were a number of questions raised in my mind about the body with the mail shirt.
The shirt I recall was bunched up around his neck upper torso, indicating he was either being dragged by it,
some one was trying to remove it,(nmot as likely in a battle in a mine, or possibly he was being dragged out by his Persian soldiers when the mine started to collapse and they left him.
So, I could be convinced either way.
Pity Dura is in Syria. Where are the artifacts, apart from Harvard?
And who has actually done any real study on this place apart from them.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#15
http://www.archaeology.co.uk/cwa/world-n...uropos.htm

For those interested in what other experts have to say on the place.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply


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