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Sallust\'s description of Catiline\'s legions.
#1
Hi all,

I was just trawling through my uni notes and I came across this from our study of Sallust's Catiline Conspiracy (Sal. Cat. 59) and thought I'd share it. It is a description - well, purports to be a description - of the legionary battle formation Catiline drew up for his final battle. At the back of my mind, though I cannot just find it quickly searching, Sallust said Catiline had enough men for two legions.

I'm gathering that Sallust's primary agenda is to portray Catiline as a man who, although wildly ambitious and destructive, nonethleless was possessed of a laudable Roman courage. That is, the theme is Roman Virtue. In the traditions of Roman representation of history, I imagine any and all aspects of this extract need to be read critically. However, it is very detailed and that makes me wonder who/what Sallust's sources were.

This is an extract from: Watson, Rev. John Selby 1899 Conspiracy of Catiline. Sallust. New York and London. Harper & Brothers (The original is at Perseus - Latin and English).

When he had thus spoken, he ordered, after a short delay, the signal for battle to be sounded, and led down his troops, in regular order, to the level ground. Having then sent away the horses of all the cavalry, in order to increase the men's courage by making their danger equal, he himself, on foot, drew up his troops suitably to their numbers and the nature of the ground. As a plain stretched between the mountains on the left, with a rugged rock on the right, he placed eight cohorts in front, and stationed the lest of his force, in close order, in the rear.[sup][1][/sup] From among these he removed all the ablest centurions,[sup][2][/sup] the veterans,[sup][3][/sup] and the stoutest of the common soldiers that were regularly armed, into the foremost ranks.[sup][4][/sup] He ordered Caius Manlius to take the command on the right, and a certain officer of Fæsulæ[sup][5][/sup] on the left; while he himself, with his freedmen[sup][6][/sup] and the colonists,[sup][7][/sup] took his station by the eagle,[sup][8][/sup] which Caius Marius was said to have had in his army in the Cimbrian war.

[size=2]NOTES in Watson 1899:

1 LIX. In the rear] “In subsidio.” Most translators have rendered this, "as a body of reserve;" but such can not well be the signification. It seems only to mean the part behind the front: Catiline places the eight cohorts in front, and the rest of his force in subsidio, to support the front. Subsidia, according to Varro (de L. L., iv. 16) and Festus (v. Subsidium), was a term applied to the Triarii, because they subsidebant, or sunk down on one knee until it was their turn to act. See Sheller's Lex. v. Subsidium. “"Novissimi ordines its dicuntur."” Gerlach. In subsidiis, which occurs a few lines below, seems to signify in lines in the rear; as in Jug. 49, triplicibus subsidiis aciem intruxit, i.e. with three lines behind the front. “"Subsidium ea pars aciei vocabatur quæ reliquis submitti posset; Cæs. B. G., ii. 25."” Dietsch.

2 All the ablest centurions] “Centuriones omnes lectos.” “"Lectos you may consider to be the same as eximios, præstantes, centurionum præstantissimum quemque."” Kritzius. Cortius and others take it for a participle, chosen.

3 Veterans] “Evocatos.” Some would make this also a participle, because, say they, it can not signify evocati, or called-out veterans, since, though there were such soldiers in a regular Roman army, there could be none so called in the tumultuary forces of Catiline. But to this it is answered that Catiline had imitated the regular disposition of a Roman army, and that his veterans might consequently be called evocati, just as if they had been in one; and, also that evocatus as a participle would be useless; for if Catiline removed (subducit) the centurions, it is unnecessary to add that he called them out, “"Evocati erant, qui expletis stipendiis non poterant in delectu scribi, sed precibus imperatoris permoti, aut in gratiam ejus, militiam resumebant, homines longo uso militiæ peritissimi. Dio., xlv. p. 276. ᾿Εκ τούτων δὲ τῶν ἀνδρῶν καὶ τὸ τῶν ῾Ηουοκάτων η̈̀ ᾿Ουοκάτων σύστημα (ὁῦζ ᾿Ανακλήτουζ ὺ̂ν τὶζ ᾿Ελληνίσαζ, ὄτι πεπαυμένοι τῆς στρατέιας, ἐπ̓ αὐτὴν ά̂υθις ἀνεκλήθμσαν, ὀυομάσειεν) ἐνομίσθη. Intelligit itaque ejusmodi homines veteranos, etsi non propriè erant tales evocati, sed sponte castra Catilinæ essent secuti."” Cortius.

4 Into the foremost ranks] “In primam aciem.” Whether Sallust means that he ranged them with the eight cohorts, or only in the first line of the subsidia, is not clear.

5 A certain officer of Fæsulæ] “Fæsulanum quemdam.” “"He is thought to have been that P. Furious, whom Cicero (Cat., iii. 6, 14) mentions as having been one of the colonists that Sylla settled at Fæsulæ, and who was to have been executed, if he had been apprehended, for having been concerned in corrupting the Allobrogian deputies."” Dietsch. Plutarch calls this officer Furius.

6 His freedmen] “Libertis.” “"His own freedmen, whom he probably had about him as a body-guard, deeming them the most attached of his adherents. Among them was, possibly, that Sergius, whom we find from Cic. pro Domo, 5, 6, to have been Catiline's armor-bearer."” Dietsch.

7 The colonists] “Colonis.” “"Veterans of Sylla, who had been settled by him as colonists in Etruria, and who had now been induced to join Catiline."” Gerlach. See c. 28.

8 By the eagle] “Propter aquilam.” See Cic. in Cat., i. 9.
[/size]


Anyone have more on this case or other examples of actual formations described (from any period)?

Cheers

SPC / Howard
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#2
Hi Howard

actually they are many more formations described
for the period you mention there is at least Caesar who has very neat comments on arraying and this is just a fast example but any that wrote history accounts in roman times has descriptions of the battle order

cheers
Gelu
-----------------
Gelu I.
www.terradacica.ro
www.porolissumsalaj.ro
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#3
Howard,

From a cursory reading of the history (even just dear old Wiki'), wasn't his army much reduced by the time of the final battle? Perhaps 8 cohorts (ie less than a full legion), organised in the standard triplex acies, were pretty much all he had left - supported by additional 'hangers on' who were then just concentrated en masse in the rear

Quote:..............
actually they are many more formations described
for the period you mention there is at least Caesar who has very neat comments on arraying and this is just a fast example but any that wrote history accounts in roman times has descriptions of the battle order
..........Gelu

Gelu,

Are there many? As far as I know Caesar really only mentions the one in much detail, at the battle of the Ebro, where he famously uses the 4-3-3 - but perhaps that one is mentioned only because it is an exception due to the space available.....

There certainly don't appear to be many others - I've been looking. Smile
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#4
Quote:Gelu,

Are there many? As far as I know Caesar really only mentions the one in much detail, at the battle of the Ebro, where he famously uses the 4-3-3 - but perhaps that one is mentioned only because it is an exception due to the space available.....

There certainly don't appear to be many others - I've been looking. Smile

Mark

we already had this subject in another thread I was able to find quite e few in Caesar will have to find where I posted, unfortunately I am presently at work where not all Forums functions work as they should

I found it here is the link is long posts I did there so I will not recopy them here
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...tml#349153

actually I read Caesar many times (like 30 I think) :?
-----------------
Gelu I.
www.terradacica.ro
www.porolissumsalaj.ro
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#5
Quote:At the back of my mind, though I cannot just find it quickly searching, Sallust said Catiline had enough men for two legions.
It's Cat. 56. 1-3. Sallust says that Catiline joined his forces with those of Manlius. He started out with only 2000 men but formed these into two legions, making up the cohorts according to the number of men available. As further recruits joined him, he divided these equally amongst the cohorts until he had brought the legions up to full strength. However, only about a quarter of his army was properly armed, the remainder carrying whatever weapons they could get hold of - hunting spears, lances or even sharpened stakes.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#6
Quote:....................
we already had this subject in another thread I was able to find quite e few in Caesar will have to find where I posted, unfortunately I am presently at work where not all Forums functions work as they should.........................

Gelu, thank you - my simple comment deserves to be countered... Smile

However, none of those examples are 'consistent'. I have seen texts state that Republican legions (cf Caesar) deploy 4-3-3 (hence the title of the original thread) as if it is the only way - but even the examples you cite are all at different levels of detail and we could reliably draw no deployment maps from them.

For my part I believe Vegetius sums it up with his standard 5x2 deployment - and we might assume that normally applies to the legion deployments your examples do show. Given my determinations on the manipular legion deployment (slightly different to Keppie's) and the likely later standard cohort deployment; the Vegetian cited 5x2 and the Polybian manipular have identical deployment frontages.

But, not surprisingly, no writings of actual battles mention boring 'standard' stuff! :wink:
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#7
Hi Gelu

I have to wonder, with Mark, just how many descriptions like Sallust's there actually are.

I found the passage I quoted a rather interesting and detailed description that might throw light on Roman military organization depending on the sources of its author. These sources can be discovered, or not discovered, or speculated upon. I guess, to me, it is the detail in and the nature of such descriptions that excites me in terms of thinking about where the author got his information.

I am, however, searching "legio" in Caesar's De Bello Civili on Perseus and will see what turns up (shame on me - studied Latin but haven't read Caesar - blush), and your link for which I thank you.

Cheers and thanks

Howard / SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#8
Hi Michael

(To meSmile "... It's Cat. 56. 1-3 ..."

Many thanks. This will save me time. Add the comments about the equipping of the armed force to the later description and one can pretty much make a mental image of what Catiline was able to deploy on the day. It also makes one think about what really appeared on antique battlefields as opposed to what one imagines thanks to Hollywood.

Cheers and thanks

Howard / SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
Reply
#9
Hi Mark

(1) (To meSmile "... wasn't his army much reduced by the time of the final battle?"

I remember reading it was but will re-read. Certainly, Catiline's support base had been rapidly melting away in Rome, and so must his armed following in the field (Wikipedia: ",,, from about 10,000 to a mere 3,000 ..."), hence his attempt to flee to Gaul. I no longer have any of my more detailed lecture notes and so will revisit the text for Sallust's description of things (which won't be a chore as I enjoyed the Sallust unit).

(2) (To GeluSmile "... Vegetius sums it up with his standard 5x2 deployment ... "

I have this problem with Vegetius. He is writing about 380-390AD, possibly addressing himself to Valentinian II, and I seem to remember reading somewhere that the "ancients" he refers to were the Romans of the early 3rd Century AD. If I am remembering correctly, then you'd expect that his descriptions of an ideal legion (I don't know that he ever describes the use of a legion in an historical incident) would reflect the structure of, say, a Severan legion, assuming he had accessed thorough and reliable sources for that period and decided to follow them closely in forming the his description of an "ancient legion" (Parker's Antiqua Legio).

But, from what (little) Vegetius I've read (and that only in English) his descriptions seem to merge legionary structures from a number of periods (See also H. M. D. Parker 1932 The Antiqua Legio of Vegetius, The Classical Quarterly, Vol. 26, No. 3/4, pp. 137-149). For that reason, I'm steering away from Vegetius.

But, occasionally, descriptions like Sallust's do pop up and it's Christmas when you come across one.

Cheers and thanks

Howard / SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
Reply
#10
Howard, Mark

interesting debate, with no simple answer, I agree there are not too many "good" deployment examples out there. I also think the answer, at least for this period, can be still found in Caesar and I think that is just as simple: there is no standard, at least not for a good general. From what I read Catiline wasn't a stump as well, we don't need to agree that Caesar was a good enough general (the list of defeated kings, generals and other commanders is too long to deny it); so the my answer is: a good general uses his forces as he sees fit to win, 3 lines, 2 lines, 4 lines it depends: on the way the other general is drawing up, terrain, troops at disposal, unit strength.

Just a small comment on Vegetius, 400+ years is quite a time even if you have the "ancients" to read and cite, remember there were some error sources at that time: the books were hand copied, even language changed over 400 years I would guess, and as we all now the "good old days and ways" is cited even today

so for me I don't think there is an simple answer and unfortunately if there was one is lost to us, we can use only what we have and this is: the best general makes use of the flexibility of cohortal organization in order to win his battles

Cheers
Gelu

PS Reading Caesar is a must
-----------------
Gelu I.
www.terradacica.ro
www.porolissumsalaj.ro
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#11
Quote:Hi Mark
....................
(2) (To GeluSmile "... Vegetius sums it up with his standard 5x2 deployment ... "

I have this problem with Vegetius. He is writing about 380-390AD, possibly addressing himself to Valentinian II, and I seem to remember reading somewhere that the "ancients" he refers to were the Romans of the early 3rd Century AD. If I am remembering correctly, then you'd expect that his descriptions of an ideal legion (I don't know that he ever describes the use of a legion in an historical incident) would reflect the structure of, say, a Severan legion, assuming he had accessed thorough and reliable sources for that period and decided to follow them closely in forming the his description of an "ancient legion" (Parker's Antiqua Legio).

But, from what (little) Vegetius I've read (and that only in English) his descriptions seem to merge legionary structures from a number of periods (See also H. M. D. Parker 1932 The Antiqua Legio of Vegetius, The Classical Quarterly, Vol. 26, No. 3/4, pp. 137-149). For that reason, I'm steering away from Vegetius. ..........

I quite understand the need to be careful, and interpret, Vegetius - for I have done this myself - as noted before.

For my part I believe Vegetius has, effectively, Polybius & Livy in one hand and a knowledge of the Imperial/Augustan changes in the other (perhaps the missing Frontinus :? ) and an understanding of the basics. However, because of that I think his legion-construct is a hypothetical and not based upon reality. I think I can see what he has done - and you will be able to read that shortly here.......as soon as I finish.

What I am shooting for is the 'theoretical standard', for Gelu's point is well made - a General will use the tools he is given - mostly dependent on the tactical and ground situation at the time.
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#12
Hello all

Back after a day or two sidetracked by this and that.

Gelu, you wrote:
"... books were hand copied, even language changed over 400 years ..."

It'd be probably reasonable to assume Roman scholars were sensitive to the problems of transmitting texts by manual copying and perhaps the more scrupulous among them would have checked other copies of a source if they were in doubt about a point in the copy nearest to hand. That's only speculation on my part, but it would stand to reason. The thing is, "scrupulous" as I use it here is a modern-day concept in the context of research. Even if Vegetius knew that copies of source "x" tended to contain errors generated by re-transcribing, would it have mattered to him? If his main interest was in creating a satisfying narrative, it may not. The thing is, whatever sources he did have at his disposal were at least "younger" than the earliest manuscripts available to us today (anything authored by Caesar being a mere 450 years old).

But as to the language changing, that mightn't have been a problem for Vegetius. The Latin of Cicero is essentially the Latin of Ammianus Marcellinus just as the Greek of Sophocles isn't that different to that of Constantine Porphyrogenitus (this I can attest to having translated passages of all four). That said, individual words acquire new meanings over time, sometimes abandoning their former meanings, and this might well introduce problems for an antique scholar reading older sources.

Our problem today is that antique writers often didn't acknowledge their sources and so we have to infer not only who they were consulting but, indeed, how well the later writer was understanding the earlier.

Mark, you wrote:
"... I think his legion-construct is a hypothetical and not based upon reality ..."

I'd certainly agree with that. Vegetius does seem to be saying: "Look, the ancients were great because they had this and this, and they did that and that, and we're in the rather sorry state we are today because we've let all that go. But, we could be great again if we revived all of these things". And all the things needing reviving have been cherry-picked, meaning that the army organization which would restore Rome's glory is, as you say, a construct rather than a reconstruction of an organization that actually existed at some historical point.

Which is why I'm steering clear of Vegetius for the present, because it seems (to me) very difficult to relate any of his descriptions to a precedent anchored in history. What I get excited about digging up are descriptions of legionary dispositions or organization at identifiable historical moments.

I wanted to add something about the nature of legions but it's gone and, like Shakespeare's Anthony, "I must pause till it come back to me".

Cheers

Howard / SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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