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Gladius discussion (was: show your gladius off)
#1
Hmmm - Nice as his work is, I think Mr Morrow is taking some liberties with pugio design. The sheath does not look right for the style of the blade, as it is a small version of a late second to mid third century style of sheath which is not contemporary with the sword or the dagger blade and does not look like any of the known types of first century AD frame sheaths. A handle of that style on a pugio should also look like a replacement for a lost one, not something it was designed to have.

I will put up a picture or two of my own sword as soon as I can get Photobucket to stop stalling on me.

Crispvs
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#2
But then how would you explain the differences in the blades ( I mean like the midrib and cross section, not shape )? Also, look at what Crispus posted about the pugio.
Regards, Jason
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#3
Quote:But then how would you explain the differences in the blades ( I mean like the midrib and cross section, not shape )? Also, look at what Crispus posted about the pugio.

The midrid wouldn't be necessary for a longer blade as extreme stiffness isn't wanted in a cut and thrust sword, its still needs flexibility. Meanwhile, the pugio hilt and tang design are only slightly different, with more elaborate worked into the tang. Though not always:

[img width=250]http://www.artemission.com/pics/a411/201114ae0.jpg[/img]

Look at the above pugio blade, just the tang and blade design, and tell me they don't appear to be miniature Mainz swords.

[img width=250]http://www.albion-swords.com/images/bareblades/mainz-1.JPG[/img]

Since the pugio came first, from Spain, my guess is that an inquisitive sword maker created a new sword type, a purely infantry version, by copying the then popular "spanish daggers", lengthening the blades, removing the midrib, creating a different pommel design (to facilitate slashing and holding onto blade).

Just my latest pet theory.
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#4
Well, since Celtiberians were the basic designers of both blades, it's not surprising that they are similar...
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#5
Quote:Well, since Celtiberians were the basic designers of both blades, it's not surprising that they are similar...

I think the Mainz style Gladius was purely a Roman design as it appears in the latter half of the 1st Cent BC, well after the Celtibernians were subdued, and continued on in used for quite some time, until gradually replaced by the Pompeii style. Are you referring to the original Gladius Hispaniensis in general? Because that blade style had little in common with the Mainz other than the tang and that they were both double bladed. Most Glad. Hispaniensis were straight bladed and had thinner blades, whereas nearly all pugio and Mainz Gladius are fat and are wasp-waisted.
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#6
which "flexibility"??? most of the Mainz-blades were made in mid-carbon steel or high-carbon-edges on a low carbon core. these composites don`t work in a "flexible" way... they bend without breaking. normally and well-made and well-used. flexibility as we know it from later times was not (or very seldom) achieved in these times (till 3rd-4th century). a blade of 50cm doesn`t need to be flexible to work as a weapon
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#7
Quote:which "flexibility"??? most of the Mainz-blades were made in mid-carbon steel or high-carbon-edges on a low carbon core. these composites don`t work in a "flexible" way... they bend without breaking. normally and well-made and well-used. flexibility as we know it from later times was not (or very seldom) achieved in these times (till 3rd-4th century). a blade of 50cm doesn`t need to be flexible to work as a weapon

You might find this interesting:

"[Celtibernians] grasp the hilt [of their swords] in their right hand and the end of the blade in their left; then, laying it horizontally on their heads, they pull down at each end until they touch their shoulders [each end]. Next, they let go sharply, removing both hands. When released, [the sword blade] straightens itself out against and so resumes its original shape, without retaining a suspicion of a bend. Though they repeat this frequently, the sword remains straight."
Philon of Byzantium, Belopeika, 4.71, written in 2nd Century BC
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#8
Did pugiones in and before the 1st century BC have stacked hilts, though? Legio XX's handbook says that the rod tang was introduced "around 50 AD."
Dan D'Silva

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#9
The Oberaden pugio is dated to 11-8 B.C. and it has a stacked hilt with metal as the top layer on both sides.
Regards, Jason
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#10
Well, my new gladius arrived today! The Optio model from SOTW is nice but I think I will do some work on it first before I post it. The punch outs on the plates are not that clean so I will file them down to make it will look better. Also the chape is a little loose so I will fix that too. Overall a great looking sword though.
Regards, Jason
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#11
OOOW Goody 8+) looking forward to seeing it Jason Big Grin
Bryan Philon was referring to the Falcata and how the sword was made, Diodorus also mentions its manufacture, and even this sword has different possible origins.
Regards Brennivs Big Grin
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#12
Quote:OOOW Goody 8+) looking forward to seeing it Jason Big Grin
Bryan Philon was referring to the Falcata and how the sword was made, Diodorus also mentions its manufacture, and even this sword has different possible origins.
Regards Brennivs Big Grin

Very interesting, can you cite where the mention of falcata was made? Is there an online text? I've never read the whole of his works, just that one paragraph that is used in numerous other secondary sources to describe ancient sword quality. Also, isn't the word falcata relatively modern? Philon wrote in Greek, what word did he actually use?

Also, I included the verse to demonstrate that heat treatment methods to add flexibility/springiness to blades existed even in the 2nd century BC. Considering a falcata type blade has a thicker rear spine than a double edged sword like a La Tene type or gladius hispaniensis variety, I'd say it would mean that such methods would be even easier for the latter whose blade geometry lent itself more to being flexible.

[img width=100]http://1501bc.com/files/falcata/DrFalcataForte1.jpg[/img]
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#13
The Falcata swords were made very well too. I have heard that the Spanish buried pieces of steel in the ground and then pulled them out to make sword blades from them, the dirt corroding the weak steel from them.

Bryan, the word falcata is a more modern worn and one of the only historical references is in Seneca's De Beneficiis (5:24) where he writes about the words of a veteran in court pleading his case in front of Julius Caesar:


"Nor would you recognize that helmet if you saw it: it was split by a Hispanian saber (machaera Hispana)."


The "Hispanian saber" here seems to be the falcata.
Regards, Jason
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#14
Quote:The Falcata swords were made very well too. I have heard that the Spanish buried pieces of steel in the ground and then pulled them out to make sword blades from them, the dirt corroding the weak steel from them.

Bryan, the word falcata is a more modern worn and one of the only historical references is in Seneca's De Beneficiis (5:24) where he writes about the words of a veteran in court pleading his case in front of Julius Caesar:

"Nor would you recognize that helmet if you saw it: it was split by a Hispanian saber (machaera Hispana)."

The "Hispanian saber" here seems to be the falcata.

I know the type of sword existed, I'm just stating that Philon of Byzantium probably probably didn't refer to whatever sword he was describing in the abovementioned description of sword flexibility as a falcata or even using the Latin description you provided. He was Greek, he wrote in Greek, so I wonder what exact words were chosen. I don't have access to an actual copy of the work, so I wonder if Tony Drake could provide it, since he corrected me.

Regardless of whatever sword it mentioned, ultimately what I was driving at was that swords were in fact able to be made quite flexible and springy in the time period in question, which is kind of counter to what Jürgen wrote. If the methods existed in the 2nd century BC, they probably also existed in the Roman world by the late 1st Century BC and well into the 2nd Century AD, when the Mainz sword was used. Considering that it was a cut and thrust sword, it probably would have been a bit flexible

Burying iron in ground would cause oxidation and the removal of unwanted non-iron impurities/elements, correct?
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#15
Bryan said:

Burying iron in ground would cause oxidation and the removal of unwanted non-iron impurities/elements, correct?


Exactly Smile. Also, for a falcata, you would not have a very flexible blade because the blade has a triangular or pentagonal cross section that makes the spine very thick, too thick to bend.
Regards, Jason
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