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Size of Barbarian Migrations
#16
But titles can become fossilised, The monarchs of England and then Great Britain included "King of France" in their official titulature until the latter part of the reign of George III, some 350 years after it had ceased to have any factual basis. By the time of the fall of the Vandal Kingdom I would imagine that most Vandals and Alans in North Africa probably spoke Latin as their mother tongue, there being little other than nostalgia to promote the retention of their original speech.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#17
Quote:My interest, naturally, is the Alan migration. We get absolutely no figures from any sources. Only after the Alanic confederation began to break up, do we find mention in Roman sources... such as the Goar Alans reported above by Michael.

What we cannot imagine is the huge and lengthy migration as it crossed the steppes, from east of the Araxes to the Caucasus where a huge number of Alans split from the main group and settled in the lower valleys to form ancient Alania... many nobles eventually aiding the Yuan against the Chinese. Then the remaining body continued west, entering Roman space, some joining the Goths, others going up into Pannonia. According to statistics, Gratian accepted 30,000 Alans into the western army. This fighting force, if 1/5 of the Pannonian Alanic population, accounts for a civilian number of 150,000 people... yet this was perhaps only 1/2 (or less) of the original migrating group from the eastern steppes. If so, the Alanic migration was absolutely MASSIVE. Wink

Alan, where did you get the information about 'Gratian accepting 30,000 Alans into the western army' from? The only sources I can find about Alan's in Gratian's service are that they formed his personal bodyguard and it was claimed that this so upset the troops that this is was ultimately led to his assassination.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#18
Robert wrote:
Quote:Hi Michael, I beg to differ. The Alans were a very different group, but culturally as well as linguistically, and they certainly did not 'change into Vandals' while in Spain. Geiseric is clearly styled as 'king of the Vandals and Alans' to signify that

Hi Robert, sorry for the poor wording in my previous post but I did say ‘technically’ in so much as the Alans were now subjects of the Hasding Vandal kings from Gunderic onwards and part of the Vandal migration to Africa. I feel that there is little evidence other than the mosaic you posted. that the Alans were separate except for maybe a few Alanic names and the official titles you mentioned like the title Rex Vandalorum et Alanorum which was used in the official titles of the Vandal kings following Gunderic and Geiseric which was probably a hangover from 416AD and I note that the Alan part of the title was dropped about 50 years later only to be used after the Byzantine conquest in 534 AD by Justinian in his victory title Alanus Vandalicus Africanus.

However the Alans were always renowned as superb horsemen and horse breeders and were probably responsible in some way for the transport of the Vandals' horses and livestock and would have been responsible for the maintenance of some fine Spanish stock & herds for the Vandal military and elite which probably through their knowledge of horse breeding helped improve the bloodlines resulting in the fine quality of the local African Barb horse breed which the Moors centuries later took with them when they invaded and conquered most of Spain and helped maintain the high standards of the Andalusian Spanish horse breeds. The Alans historically liked to think of themselves as movers and shakers (think of Goar supporting Jovinus's claim to the throne or Saul in the battle of Pollentia against Alaric) so some prominent Alan families probably formed an important component of the Vandal hierarchy through marriage & political appointments. However I do take your point that in the short time from when they submitted to the Hasdings to when they embarked for Africa in 429AD, that there was probably not much intermingling except for some remaining prominent families and a lot of Alans would have thought of themselves as separate to the Vandals. From my reading of Hydatius and the Chronica Gallica, the Alans and the Siling Vandals were decimated by Vallia’s Visigoths along with the Alan king and the leaderless remnants offered the Alan crown to Gunderic in 416-418AD. From the sources I can only assume that their leadership, military capacity and kingdom were wiped out in a series of battles although Hydatius does mention that there were a series of plagues in 411AD. Without leaders they probably would have assimilated with other groups a lot quicker for protection etc.

With the Borj Djedid mosaic image from Carthage you posted with the crosslike tamga which from my understanding is dated late 5th to early 6th century AD does probably indicate that the rider or owner of the horse was of Alanic descent as it is similar to Asiatic tamgas. But what do we know of tamgas, are they religious, symbols of status or merely a practical system developed in Central Asia of marking movable property like livestock and horses, I myself don’t really know but that seems to be the only Alan feature on the mosaic except for the fact that the horse looks like a white or grey spotted horse which was rare and popular in Central Asia and a symbol of status, but that is where the Alan similarity ends with clothing and hair looking more Roman or Germanic catering to a warmer climate.

Except for the Ossets the Alanic language seems to have died out so I think this would be the case in Vandal Africa that over a few generations they would have spoken the same language as the others whether that was Latin for the leading families who probably used the established language of the remaining Roman-African aristocracy or a form of German for the rest.

I know it probably is not good to compare modern contemporary times to the ancient past but in my family's case my mother and her 12 siblings emigrated to Australia from Eindhoven in Holland with their parents 60 years ago and no one knew much English but 3 or 4 generations later there are hundreds of descendants and except for the original brothers and sisters who still had their childhood memories of their former home, never getting used to hot Christmas's in the middle of Summer, no Saint Nicholas and Black Peter,no windmills and in my mother's case how she missed her old pastime of ice skating. Now there are not many of my distant relatives that speak Dutch and all my uncles and aunts except for the slight accent consider themselves Australian and not Dutch, although with Holland doing well in the World Cup we had a lot of born again Dutchmen. Maybe a poor comparison & I am aware that most of the Alans had been wandering for over 50 years anyway from the Don, through Pannonia, Gaul, Spain & then onto Africa without a homeland but a few generations can change a people in both their language, customs and ideals especially when their leadership has been eradicated and a feeling of helplessness and fear takes effect with no one there to pass on old traditions and the people as a group feel vulnerable and seek protection. The point I am trying to make is that the Alans were very much weakened by 416AD and insecure by war or disease or maybe both. The Alans of 409AD were in a much stronger position with greater numbers and capable of maintaining their independence unlike the frightened and desperate people of 416-418AD.

Procopius mentions that Geiseric, when organizing his people into Chiliarchs of a thousand people or troops, that the names of the Alans and other assorted Barbarians, except for the Moors were brought under that of the Vandals so this indicates that militarily they were not separate from the Vandals although they probably made up a large component of their cavalry forces. Oral traditions would have been important for Alans to remember their Central Asian or Pontic past so maybe these encouraged some differences but who knows? Apologies for rambling, this post has become much longer than I originally planned. Smile
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#19
Quote:Much of the Frankish ‘migration’ is more comparable to that of modern workers moving to another country. They fought for the Romans, and for a long time many went back home (which is shown by the funerary items) although more and more remain within the Empire after retirement. Gradually you sse the original settlements becoming smaller, until the 5th century there is a clear move towards the new Frankish-dominated lands in modern Belgium and France.
The Alans, too, were employed by the Romans in small groups, spread out in time and space.

Would it be fair to apply this description to the Burgundians too? I don't remember reading anything about a large group of Burgundian migrants on the march; they just seem to have appeared on Roman land, with some degree of Roman acquiescence, in the 5th century. And there were othere scattered groups; I think there were some in the big Rhine crossing of 406, there were some fighting as Roman foederati and even some fighting as Attila's allies. That doesn't look like evidence of a firmly organized tribe acting in unison.
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#20
The Burgundians were particularly I'll-served by Valentinian I and they also had little love for their Alamanni neighbours.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#21
The Burgundians raised an usurper in 411 and gained control of Borbetomagus. They had slowly moved towards the Nicer River where they would remain into the 450's, but the East and West bank Burgundians (that of Gundicar being in Borbetomagus) were two separate groups. We know this because the Burgundians of Gundicar were re-settled by Aetius as foederati in 443 after their crushing defeat at the hands of a Roman army with foederati support, while the Burgundians still on the Nicer River fell under the domination of the Huns sometime after they defeated Octar in 430.
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#22
Hi Michael,

No problem with the rambling, but I’ll address the logic if you will forgive me… Smile

My post was directed against your claim that the Alans had already merged with the Vandals during their time in Spain.. I think we now agree that this did not take place.

The rest of your 2 posts are I think mostly about what happened after, which I did not say much about (being concerned with the period in Spain). But some comments, still:

It’s true that there is not much evidence about how the Alans fared in Africa, how if at all they retained customs etc. But then there is little evidence anyway of that, including the vandals, as far as I am aware. So it’s unfortunately not possible to see if or if not the Alans retained customs etc., and this equally means that you can’t make your point. We have not enough. But still, a few names, mosaics, titles.

I would not call the title ‘Rex Vandalorum et Alanorum’ a ‘hangover’, which suggests to me (like Urselius did a few posts earlier) that it was a meaningless relic. Titles are immensely important and not used, especially within decades of the event, without care. This is no ‘fossilised title’, it’s far too soon.
Was the title really dropped? Or merely left out by an author? It was apparently important enough to be revived by Justinian, which would be silly if there were no distinctive Alans around anymore. Your quote of Procopius supports that! There were evidently plenty of Alans around to be the cavalry of the vandals, and with recognisable names too. And that long after the crossing to Africa.

You agree that Alans and Vandals probably did not mix (thanks for that) but you propose that their numbers, after being defeated by the Goths. But those were not all the Alans in Spain. Wallia campaigned against the Vandals under Fredebal in Baetica and against the Alans under Addac (Attaces) in Lusitania, routing them in battle, reducing the latter so much that the survivors flee to the Asding Vandals.
Also, from Frigeridus we know that the Alans had earlier rescued the Vandals from annihilation by the Franks. We are probably reading about several different groups, not about all the Vandals and all the Alans.

The mosaic shows nothing more and nothing less than someone who is adapting to Roman culture, but still knows his past enough to value it. Unfortunately we know nothing more.
I like your family history. My sister-in-law also has relatives in the USA, who still have bumper stickers with ‘It ain’t much if it ain’t Dutch!’. However, I really doubt if all that stuff is more than superficial. I’ve been told by sociologists that a group is especially keen to stress their differences when in a situation where their identity is under threat – when they feel (unwanted) assimilation looms. This happens on borders but also when kids begin to adapt to the local culture. Dutch migrants are indeed far more (especially!) ken on windmills and that sort of stuff – no Dutch citizen owns that, it’s only for tourists!
And indeed, our Alan friend on the mosaic might be doing just the same as an American of Dutch descent, the tamga perhaps being his bumper sticker (love that image). :grin:
We don’t know!!!!

Indeed we have a poor understanding of how Germanic and Eurasian groups intermingle with Romans. We see a lot of ethnogenese going on, with traits from both forming a new group, even though (whether in Britain, Noricum or in Gaul) even more than a century later the legal system still clearly defines a person as belonging to one group or the other. Yet the Franks lose their German tongue over the centuries for instance, even though we cannot say for the lack of source how long that took. The names of kings (especially their nicknames) are German for quite some time.
Yet on the other hand, we completely lose sight of the Alans in Gaul, or the Taifali and such groups, which completely assimilate with the Gaulish provincials.

Oh and Michael, your mother missed her ice-skating but unfortunately, here in the Old Country we ALL miss our ice-skating. Last winter it was not cold enough for even one silly ditch to freeze over, so all Dutch skaters (save those going to a hall, but you can do that even in Qatar I’m told) had to go without. A great shame. Sad
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#23
Back to Everyone,

My library is in storage, and I have few references at hand. Don't know where I got the "30,000" Alans from, but believe this figure came from the 380 recruitment by Gratian. Yes, he had a bodyguard of Alans, but they were just a fragment of the total. I would imagine this Alanic group was the one Christianized by Bishop Amantius in Pannonia. Roman sources are vague, even calling obvious Alans "Goths" in some cases. Likely, these were part of the "Three Peoples" led by the "Two Duces," Alatheus and Safrax. They were described as living anywhere from the Balkans to Pannonia, and I would think they might have lived within the entire area that became noted for instability right up to the Rhine crossing.

Were they pushed onto the Danubian Plain by Rua's Huns? And in fact, some of them were Huns and Greutungi. Gratian encountered them on his way to aid Valens in 378; and after the recruitment, they supposedly fought for Theodosius at Frigidus. Part of this group formed the Comites Alani under Stilicho, their leader being Saul.

The amazing instability during 380-406 could not be followed by contemporary historians, the entire Alanic/Gothic population in flux. Robert made a good point-- was it "nomadic" or a "migration." Here is Peter Heather's view, "By the time the various Alanic subgroups involved in the Rhine crossing had reached the Middle Danube... they had recently made one long trek from east of the River Don, so that a proper migratory--- rather than merely nomadic--- habit had already gathered momentum amongst them." (Empires and Barbarians, p. 185) Perhaps Heather simplifies it a bit, and frankly I don't believe he took the entire Pannonian population into account. And it would also seem that the socalled "Goths" that swung over to Alaric after Stilicho's murder were not all Goths, but likely included the Comites Alani and Stilicho's Huns as well. This falls perfectly into the "Three Peoples" definition formerly under Safrax and Alatheus. Unfortunately, the entire period is plagued by contemporary records of over-simplification as to ethnogenre.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#24
The Alans probably ended up filling in the role that the Roman skirmisher cavalry had in Africa: managing the nomads. They were both horsemen.
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#25
Hi Robert, I take your point about the importance of the titles of the Vandal kings and your thoughts on the mosaic you posted previously but you got me thinking about that mosaic and the tagma which I know was an Eastern steppe practice and it was always something that I never placed much significance into, discounting the religious aspect and assuming it was more a form of branding. However maybe it was a symbol of status that the Alans in North Africa or elsewhere used to show up their differences to the majority populations and could possibly be a source of pride. Like I said I just thought the clothing with the short tunic, the cloak, sandals and lack of trousers seemed very Roman to me and not indicitative of the steppe mode of dress. Having said that I have a few other images which may interest you.
The clothing on the Borj Djedid mosaic seemed very similar to another mosaic image I have which I shall post below with the hunting scenes showing riders, horses and dog teams chasing down hares. Two of the riders are using whips but the rider on the bottom left seems to be giving a form of salute like the rider in the mosaic you posted. However no tagmas. What is it with that salutation is it a Roman thing or a Vandal thing?

[attachment=10319]huntingscene2.jpg[/attachment]

However I found another mosaic found in Carthage of a rider and a dog hunting (maybe the same man) with the same tagma but a different horse and he seems to be wearing trousers and clothing more akin to steppe attire. Maybe the artist who did the mosaic forgot to put a lasso in the riders hand as his hand position is nearly the same as the hand holding the lasso in the greyscale image I described in next paragraph. Posted below.


[attachment=10320]LateRomanmosaicofhuntingscenewithhuntsmananddogfromCarthage.jpg[/attachment]

I also have a book on ancient horses which had a greyscale image of a mosaic of another rider lassoing a stag. Although there is no tagma on his horse, he seems to be wearing trousers and lassoing seems to have been invented on the steppe, as it was useful for separating mares from the herd and roping cattle and was commonly used by Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, Huns and later steppe nomads for work, hunting and warfare so maybe the lasso gives away the rider's origin as it seems a bit out of place for a Vandal to be using a lasso for hunting stags.


[attachment=10321]Vandal-stag2.jpg[/attachment]

BTW my mother was always proud of her Dutch heritage but emigrating to Australia in the 1950s was hard as there was no multiculturalism then and you just learnt English and adjusted the best way you could. There were plenty of Dutch societies and clubs so she used to enjoy going to them so she could mix with other Dutch people. She married a son of a Scotsman (hence my surname,) who did not encourage us to learn or speak much Dutch and when she visited Holland in the 1980s she was shocked because the country she saw had changed so much from the country of her childhood memories. So the original generation never forgot their heritage, it was the next couple of generations that changed. We learnt plenty of Dutch swear words though whenever she was angry with our father or us. :-)


Magister Militum Flavius Aetius wrote:
Quote:The Alans probably ended up filling in the role that the Roman skirmisher cavalry had in Africa: managing the nomads. They were both horsemen.
Evan, you are probably right as I don't know too much about the battles between the Vandals and the locals but I read in Deb Bennet's book which admittedly is about the history of Spanish horses, that the Berbers originally used camels against the Vandals as horses were rare and highly prized. The Berbers had their camels form a 12 deep circle while the warriors wielding swords and javelins took up their positions between the flanks of the camels. The Vandals/Alans found that their horses didn't like the smell of the camels and often wheeled and backed away when the Berbers would bombard them while retreating with javelins so a lot of battles ended in a stalemate so the Vandals concentrated on defending the Roman estates and cities and when they captured Carthage, took up piracy as they profited from that more. When the Vandals were defeated by the Byzantines the Berbers acquired lots of horses and they quickly became excellent horsemen, breeders and horse traders, helping develop the Barb breed. After being badly mauled by the Byzantines in warfare they abandoned fighting on camelback and adopted the light horse tactics that they were later famous for. At least that is according to Deb Bennet in her book 'Conquerors'. :-)
Regards
Michael Kerr


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Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#26
Thanks for the info, Michael

Little is known about tamgas and there has been a lot of conjecture, especially by those who see something "religious" in them. Personally, and this is also hypothesis, I think they were simply a sign of a noble's ownership of free-ranging horses. I see a direct correlation between tamgas and the later brands used in the American west. A few years ago, I painted a fantasy on vellum-- called The Horsebreaker-- incorporating the ancient-eastern-western connection. Here's a censored view of her equipment, including a branding iron, ditty bag, a bed roll patterned after the herring-bone weavings found in the Tarim Basin, and the proverbial lasso... all echoing your above post.

[attachment=10335]ajcpainting--thehorsebreaker003.JPG[/attachment]

You mentioned the "white-spotted horse" as having particular significance to the Alans. Horses with these markings were also esteemed by the Goths through cultural adoption. Today, we see the [V]andalusian and Akhal Teke breeds with white spots on a gray background, a continuation of prized steppe colors. In the novel Forging the Blade, the Taifali heroine rides a white-spotted gelding, my tribute to ancient tradition. And I also have a colorful minor character known as Stefan the brikan-meister (horsebreaker).

In modern Europe, and in the world of today, the Alanic influence still exists. Quite literally, the migration left its mark. Wink


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#27
Hi Michael,

Thanks for enhancing my arguments, especially with that mosaic. The tamga (not tagma), the trousers and the hunting technique to seem to show a person who still shows cultural elements from the steppe rather than the forests of germany. So, speculating of course, I see an Alan here rather than a vandal, let alone a Roman.
Of course, one mosaic does not tell us much about the entire Vandal-Alan population, but as our little exchange was about the Alans being absorbed by the Vandals in Spain, I see my point (that they were still recogniseably separate in Africa) supported. Smile

As to the hunting scene below, there are differences in the cloting. The African mosaic shows typical tousers which indeed remind you of steppe fashions, while the Piazza Armerina mosaic (I think it’s from that site) show the typical Roman ‘puttees’. This is a Roman hunt.

Thanks for sharing those family memories. I can fully imagine the shock your mother experienced. Emigrants seem to stick with the memories they have when leaving, but of course time does not stay still, and The Netherlands changed immensely since the 1950s.
Why do people always learn the swear words?? Smile Smile
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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