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Subarmalis or gambeson?
#61
Quote:a leather jacket, front opening apparently, which is unusual for garments of that time

Certainly is! Wandering Sarmatians, perhaps? ;-)


Quote:it is hard to say much more than garments (tunics?) made from leather existed.

It's good to establish that, at least. Thanks!
Nathan Ross
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#62
Ibex was popular for garments on the steppes. I can imagine them using leather in it's stead.
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#63
Hello,

some time ago I found this as a possible reference to a thoracomacus; what do you think of its plausibility?

[Image: 4dffa1f84e7eab6a9575d69c9d88a404.jpg]
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Salvatore Falco

vel

Furius Togius Claudius Quintillus
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010431916603
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#64
It's a great drawing but what is it that we see in the picture? the elusive 'Attic helmet' (so far not present in the archaeological record of the late Roman period), a cuirass of sort (looking a bit archaic) and an undergarment of leather strips (?) stichted on an undergarment?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#65
(11-12-2015, 03:07 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: It's a great drawing but what is it that we see in the picture? the elusive 'Attic helmet' (so far not present in the archaeological record of the late Roman period), a cuirass of sort (looking a bit archaic) and an undergarment of leather strips (?) stichted on an undergarment?

The helmet should be based on the Santa Maggiore mosaics and/or on the Richborough find; I don't know about cuirass; the thoracomacus should be based on the De Rebus Bellicis miniatures, and is/should be a long and padded subarmalis.

My question is, are there any other sources for such kind of thoracomacus?
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Salvatore Falco

vel

Furius Togius Claudius Quintillus
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010431916603
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#66
(11-12-2015, 03:15 PM)panairjdde Wrote: [quote pid='332590' dateline='1447340859']
The helmet should be based on the Santa Maggiore mosaics and/or on the Richborough find; I don't know about cuirass; the thoracomacus should be based on the De Rebus Bellicis miniatures, and is/should be a long and padded subarmalis.
My question is, are there any other sources for such kind of thoracomacus?


The sources for the helmet are immensely sketchy so that's 75% pure speculation.
De material from DRB is later Medieval and no conclusions can be drawn as to the detail of the thoracomachus/Libyan hide as described in that source. I'm with those who think that DRB describes a common subarmalis, which may have existed is several shapes and forms.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#67
I'm no expert on roman armor, however I know a bit about medieval armor. There's no such thing as a 'gambeson' in mainland Europe until the 12th century. What's more is that quilted garments in use under armor don't appear before the late 13th/early 14th century or sometime thereabout.

I don't know what padding was worn under mail in the 5th century, if any (and yes there's definitely enough indication to conclude that you could wear your mail without much padding just fine I'd say), but it definitely wasn't a gambeson.


Quote:I know people who fight with SCA rattan sticks and others who fight with blunt steel swords, who reckon that their mail works perfectly fine worn over a single woollen tunic

That confirms my views on the topic. Also if it's not too much to ask, is there any chance you could point me to some of them? Wouldn't mind a chat about the topic
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#68
The only type of Roman armour that seems to need a separate arming garment is segmentata and that is mainly because of the shoulder padding. Scale armour had an integrated padded liner. Solid plate cuirasses had integrated padded liners. There are plenty of examples of medieval mail with integrated padded liners so I don't see why the Romans couldn't have worn mail with an integrated liner. The edging on mail that is depicted in some Roman illustrations seems to suggest some kind of liner.

Under-padding was just a few layers of cloth. It was meant to stop chafing and to improve the fit of the armour. Any additional protection it provided was incidental, not a design feature, and was no more than what regular clothing provided. It was never meant to stop this "blunt trauma" that some have fixated upon. Any under padding that can stop blunt trauma would be so thick as to make the armour unwearable. That kind of padding was worn over the top as the outermost layer, not underneath.

Quote:That confirms my views on the topic. Also if it's not too much to ask, is there any chance you could point me to some of them? Wouldn't mind a chat about the topic

The best person to ask is Rod Walker. He has been jousting for years. At one event he attempted to recreate 13th century equipment as accurately as possible. He wore mail with just a lined tunic underneath and his opponent wore a light felt tunic under mail and nothing else. They were both solidly hit multiple times with lances and swords from horseback and neither of them suffered anything more than bruising.

If my own experience is worth anything, I've worn mail over a knitted woollen sweater and been repeatedly hit with baseball bats hard enough to knock me off balance. I suffered no more than bruising. One interesting bruise bore the pattern of the mail links.

these threads would be worth reading through
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=34802
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=15219
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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