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Intercisa helmets - photos
#31
Quote:Ah, so the crest was riveted to the central ridge? That makes more sense.
No, take a look at the drawing.

Miks states that there were two methods of construction. One method is the method you posted (crest riveted two the ridge). Another method is the one-piece method (cf. reconstruction drawing of the Kessel-Hout helmet).


EDIT


Quote:Sorry to break in the conversation but as a helmophile I must know where these pictures/sources are from and if they are available online.
[hide]https://www.academia.edu/5624723/Christian_Miks_Spatromische_Kammhelme_mit_hoher_Kammscheibe._Jahrbuch_des_Romisch-Germanischen_Zentralmuseums_Mainz_55_2008_449-482[/hide] (Abb. 15, p. 464).
[hide]http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de%2Findex.php%2Fjahrb-rgzm%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F11429%2F5284&ei=e9E9U_qsGca0yAPR8IGwDQ&usg=AFQjCNG95YURe2IjPua3UeSc1owErP8itQ&bvm=bv.64125504,d.bGQ[/hide] (Abb. 28, p. 629).
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#32
Quote:Sorry to break in the conversation but as a helmophile I must know where these pictures/sources are from and if they are available online.
[hide]https://www.academia.edu/5624723/Christian_Miks_Spatromische_Kammhelme_mit_hoher_Kammscheibe._Jahrbuch_des_Romisch-Germanischen_Zentralmuseums_Mainz_55_2008_449-482[/hide] (Abb. 15, p. 464).
[hide]http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de%2Findex.php%2Fjahrb-rgzm%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F11429%2F5284&ei=Is89U6ShH6WqyAOKxYC4Ag&usg=AFQjCNG95YURe2IjPua3UeSc1owErP8itQ&bvm=bv.64125504,d.bGQ[/hide] (Abb. 28, p. 629).
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#33
which pictures? The one above is from "Spatromische Kammhelme mit hoher Kammscheibe" by Dr.Chrisitan Miks RGZM Jahrbuch 2008.

Within that paper are lots of color pictures of numerous complete ridge and crest helmet parts, lots of photos of crest emblems and how they were mounted (not all were done like the example above).

There is also a strong argument that the Augsburg helmet either had a crest at one point or was at least designed for one. Overhead shots of the helmet show slots in the ridge and if you notice at the front there is a small hole for the rivet for the Crest emblem.

[attachment=9506]Augsburg-crest.jpg[/attachment]


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#34
Quote:Another method is the one-piece method (cf. reconstruction drawing of the Kessel-Hout helmet).

But there is no ridge. I know of no late roman helmets without a distinctly shaped ridge. The Kessel-Hout helmet is only about 20% complete. Furthermore no late helmet sheath examples had rivets around the bottom rim as the reconstruction of the Kessel-Hout example had. That was for the stitching the leather lining. The only rivets around the rim were for cheek and neck piece leather hinge straps. In the paper from Miks on crests, I see no mention of the one piece crest example that is supposed to be from the Kessle-hout example.

EDIT:

The article with the one piece crest seems to be in relation to the Poitiers helmet and not the Kessel-Hout helmet. The Poitiers helmet is of a completely different style and period, so I'm not sure why the construction on a "one piece helmet" with a crest on it is being paralleled to the Kessel-Hout one.
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#35
Quote:The article with the one piece crest seems to be in relation to the Poitiers helmet and not the Kessel-Hout helmet. The Poitiers helmet is of a completely different style and period, so I'm not sure why the construction on a "one piece helmet" with a crest on it is being paralleled to the Kessel-Hout one.
In said article Miks writes that the ridge and the crest of both the Poitiers helmet and the Kessel-Hout helmet formed a whole.
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#36
Quote:
Quote:Another method is the one-piece method (cf. reconstruction drawing of the Kessel-Hout helmet).

But there is no ridge. I know of no late roman helmets without a distinctly shaped ridge. The Kessel-Hout helmet is only about 20% complete. Furthermore no late helmet sheath examples had rivets around the bottom rim as the reconstruction of the Kessel-Hout example had. That was for the stitching the leather lining. The only rivets around the rim were for cheek and neck piece leather hinge straps. In the paper from Miks on crests, I see no mention of the one piece crest example that is supposed to be from the Kessle-hout example.

EDIT:

The article with the one piece crest seems to be in relation to the Poitiers helmet and not the Kessel-Hout helmet. The Poitiers helmet is of a completely different style and period, so I'm not sure why the construction on a "one piece helmet" with a crest on it is being paralleled to the Kessel-Hout one.

I entirely agree Markus.

Poiters Helmet is 1. A Gladiator Helmet and 2. dates to 280 AD, while the Kessel-Hout/River Maas Helmet is 1. A Bipartite Ridge Helmet and 2. dates to 410 AD
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#37
Quote:In said article Miks writes that the ridge and the crest of both the Poitiers helmet and the Kessel-Hout helmet formed a whole.

Miks appears to simply stated that it is perhaps possible to imagine that another attachment method is possible like Poiters for Later roman helmets. It doesn't appear that Miks stated that the Kessel-Hout helmet which is from the 5th Century is made exactly like the reconstruction indicates, or exactly like Portiers (which I might add is not a bipartal construction). Again I would find it unusual that anyone would draw such a construction conclusion when so little or the original helmet remains. It looks to me more like the re constructionist had no idea what these helmets looked like when they put it together (ala upside down guards, and added rivets on other helmets in museums with added "reconstructed" parts)
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#38
Thank you. I have been saying for FOREVER that the reconstruction SUCKS.
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#39
THANKYOU! Thomas V, These links are brilliant!!!
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#40
I agree that the Poiters helmets would very likely have been of Gladiatorial origin. At least from the reconstruction drawings you see the typical metal part at the center of the forehead used to fix the two Visor halves in place, that meet in the middle of the face, Judging by the smooth ridge and low neck guard I would tentatively consider them Secutor helmets.
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#41
I believe Jens Horskotte already posted a completed study that confirmed them as Gladiatorial Helmets somewhere.
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#42
Well, we wouldn't have all these questions about what fitted into the slots of these ridge-helmets-- metal?feathers?horsehair-- if the Romans had used plastic! Cool

I mean, plastic survives FOREVER in the archaeological strata. :woot:

Boy! Those Romans. What a bunch of nitwits. :whistle:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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