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Tunic article by Fuentes needed
#1
Could someone possibly provide me with the article by Fuentes:
N. Fuentes, The Roman Military Tunic, in: M. Dawson (ed.), Roman Military Equipment: The Accoutrements of War (1987) 41–75.
Sadly this is long out of print and a used copy for € 600,- is a bit too much for me...
If someone know where to get the book for a reasonable price, I would be glad as well.

Thanks in advance
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#2
I need it, too!
Andreas Strassmeir
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#3
This is something that Mike Bishop might be able to help with.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#4
Got it - thank you very much!
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#5
Got it, too!
Thanks a lot!
Andreas Strassmeir
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#6
Hi

While certainly groundbreaking, in that prior to this article any discussion on military clothing and tunics in particular was relegated to a few sentences in any other study, I would say the Fuentes article is out of date now.

Fuentes correctly concluded that tunics during the early empire were made of two sheets of wool material. He described the military tunic as being long and narrow. He was also the first to deal with the issue of clothing colour in any detail. He examined eighteen pieces of source material of various kinds including wall paintings and mosaics dating from the early Republic to the late empire. From this he argued that the standard colour for all soldiers tunics was white, apart from Centurions, who he said wore red.

The latter comment certainly caused and continues to cause a lot of controversy in particular amongst the re-enactment community. Equally many publications have taken his theory on board although two points must be fairly obvious. Firstly there is far more evidence for clothing colour than the eighteen examples he cited.

In 2009 I myself discussed nearly 150 examples including those mentioned by Fuentes and his conclusions. Secondly his description of the military tunic as being long and narrow was evidently a misinterpretation of the archaeological evidence, chiefly the Nahal Hever tunics and how the tunic sheets were drawn in the publication. These tunics are actually broad and wide as indeed are many other examples.

For more up to date information on tunics and clothing colour in general I would suggest the excellent summaries by period in the latest edition of Bishop and Coulston's 'Roman Military Equipment'; 'The Roman Tunic' By M.Pausch, in German and hopefully my own 'Roman Military Dress'.

For third century clothing I would also recommend the relevant chapters in Simon James' book on the military equipment from Dura Europos which is available now at a reasonable price.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#7
Thank you Graham!
I have the books you mentioned and I'm aware that Fuentes' article is somewhat outdated.
But there is a discussion about it in another forum and even I read it sometime in the 90s I simply wanted to recall his arguments.
Apart from this I think it's sometimes usefull to have a fresh view on an old work to re-open the mind.
In the moment I'm reading "Waffen und Uniform des Römischen Heeres der Prinzipatsepoche nach den Grabreliefs Noricums und Pannoniens" by Hannsjörg Ubl.
This thesis from 1969 is mentioned in nearly every book about the Roman army, but remained unpublished until now (44! years later).
It's a nice edition and I would place this book besides such important works like Robinson's "Armour of Imperial Rome" and Bishop/Coulston's "Roman Military Equipment".
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#8
Hi Andreas

Ah yes....... other Forums. I once read someone on another Forum who compared the 18 pieces of evidence Fuentes selected in support of his white tunic theory and weighed that against the 150 sources I produced and concluded that I was being selective! :unsure:

Ubl was the first who discussed the Fascia Ventralis and who has also written about the Subarmalis. I like his work and would be intrested in any further details about the publication you mention.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#9
Hi Graham

150 sources are supposed to be selective?
Hm, I dare to disagree!

When Andreas and I churned out our book dealing with the equipment of the Varus Army I dedicated a substantial part of the written content to the subject of clothing colours. This and the illustrations by Andreas were to a large extent based on the sources you supplied in your books.

To counter the idea of white legionaries and red centurions still predominant in the heads of many people, we even choose to show a centurion in white and legionaries in red on the cover of the 2nd volume.


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Andreas Strassmeir
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#10
Hello Andreas

150 sources are supposed to be selective?
Hm, I dare to disagree!


On the other Forum, it was I who was accused of being selective and of leaving out evidence which did not match my theory. The point was I did not have a theory and had not set out to prove anything but instead made a conclusion based on all the evidence that I could find. If I left anything out it was certainly not intentional. I was surprised that there was so much and some of the things I discovered could also have been used by Fuentes himself to support his theory. Nevertheless others are welcome to make their own conclusions based on the evidence that I presented, which were all given published sources that the readers could check for themselves.

Another criticism of my work was that it covered too wide a time-span. However what I found interesting was how consistent the evidence was throughout the Roman period. There may well be an explanation for that that could be explained by artistic convention, nevertheless archaeology seems to support the limited use of colours that is revealed in Roman art.

Of course new discoveries could change that viewpoint at anytime.

In the meantime I am pleased to hear that my books proved to be of some use for your own, which I do own. Hopefully we can meet someday and both Andreas' can sign them for me.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#11
Quote:To counter the idea of white legionaries and red centurions still predominant in the heads of many people, we even choose to show a centurion in white and legionaries in red on the cover of the 2nd volume.

I like if authors have guts to swim against mainstream :evil: 8-)
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#12
Quote:I once read someone on another Forum
Hang on ... there's another Forum?!?! Must be amateurs. ;-)

Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#13
To Pavel:
Being mainstream is boring, anyway. Being innovative and controversial is much more fun!

To Graham:
I’m surprised to hear that you have our books since they are written in German. Of course Andreas and I will be very happy to autograph them for you … but only if you autograph yours first!
Now we only have to figure out where we will meet …
Andreas Strassmeir
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#14
This is the mentioned book by Ubl.
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#15
Mostly are the red--tunic made by cheap variante of the fabrics, not it all close to the natural-dyed textiles. Carnival-clothes.

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.alauni.at/ (member)
http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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