Phalangites.

[Walhaz]

The other interesting point is that someone made the statement that centurions could direct their maniples more flexibly than a Hellenistic commander could control a phalanx. I thought in another thread we had largely concluded that centurions did not "command" their maniples, but rather led from the front by example, thereby precluding any flexible "maneuvering." :wink:

Fighting in front, back, sideways, whatever, a centurion only commanded a century, so how much maneuvering in battle could they do? Its only one unit. Maybe lead his men through a gully to exploit a gap in the enemy phalanx, like at Pydna? Get enough together like at Pharsalus and maybe they could stop a line from attacking to redress it but I doubt they could do the same in battle. I think there are plenty of examples of the flexibility of maniples being maneuvered in unusual ways, all being done by tribunes and other senior officers, who actually had the authority to maneuver units. Like at Cynoscephalae, some unnamed tribune pulled 20 maniples for the successful right and use to to hit the Macedonian Phalanx on the Roman left in the rear. Having multiple lines of reserves no doubt helped this. Committing a unit into battle means its committed.

Precisely, which is why I referenced the earlier thread. :wink: Maniples were more flexible because they were smaller, discrete formations of troops that could be moved about or merged into a larger formation if necessary, rather than a giant block of troops that relied on its very size and weight to be decisive. But centurions did not generally repurpose or redeploy maniples (or centuries, later).

[hoplite14gr]

Well ladies and gentlemen..

The experience of a reconstruted "Asclepiodotan lochos" described here...

http://stefanosskarmintzos.wordpress.com...xperience/

intent to expand upon it....

[Bryan]

Stefanos,

Can you elaborate a bit about the article you posted about the experimental archaeology tests? Specifically about this part:
"...the synaspismos (shield lock) with overlapping shields could not be executed. When mentioned in the sources it is most probably either “poetic license” or a generalization to describe a tight formation."

Also, I've watched the Youtube videos from the KORYVANTES group, and wonder if all sarissa droop as much as the ones show.

[Benjamin Abbott]

As far as sagging sarissa go, a couple thousand years in 1594 Sir John Smythe wrote the following: "I would that the staves of the piques should bee of a tite and stiffe ashe, and not of ashe that dooth sagge, and bend when the piquers doo carrie their piques breast high before hand couched, because that such sagging and bending ashe, although it be verie tough yet it is more heavie then the other ashe; besides that the piquers cannot carry the piques of such sagging, and bending piques so even and straight in their Enemies faces, as they may carrie the other piques that doo not bend nor sagge, but are tite and straight." So at least one experienced sixteenth-century commander considered sagging and bending pikes unsuitable for the field. Whether that says anything sarissa depends on one's approach.

Sixteenth-century pikes and pike formations also potentially shed light on the question of marching and mobility with such long weapons. Smythe in the very same work quoted above mentioned the possibility of pikers switching their pikes from right to left shoulder while marching, which suggests that pikers did march holding their pikes for considerable distances. He additionally wanted pikers' armor and doublets made so they could more easily breathe during a hasty march, suggesting that pikers marched rapidly at times. In his description of Ceresole 1544, Blaise de Monluc recounted instructing pikers under his command to hold their pikes in the middle as the Swiss do and "run headlong to force and penetrate into the midst of" the opposing pike formation. He then described this opposing formation as advancing at such speed that gaps open up, with some ensigns lagging behind. Monluc and his pikers then "all of a sudden rushed in among them." By Monluc's account, pikers could and did move rapidly on the battlefield. Similarly, Swiss formations of pikers and halberdiers were famous for their speed and mobility. A source from the later sixteenth century has Swiss soldiers hurling themselves on their foes "at full speed like mad dogs, with pikes lowered and without ever breaking ranks."

Again, none of this necessarily applies to antiquity, but indicts the possibility of units that move quickly despite very long spears.