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Monumenta Vetera
#1
Does anyone have a copy of this? It supposedly lists peoples of Europe in the 4th century AD or something, I do not know.
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#2
Vetera monumenta Slavorum meridionalium historiam illustrantia : maximam partem nondum edita ex tabulariis Vaticanis?
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#3
Umm.... maybe?
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#4
Are you thinking of the Laterculus Veronensis, or Verona List (cAD314), which lists the Roman provinces and various barbarian peoples?
Nathan Ross
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#5
Maybe.

Any link to both documents?
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#6
Not one that I know of.

I've only seen excerpts of the Verona List quoted - mainly the bit about the Picts and the Caledones - in AHM Jones and other places.

Edit - I believe this might be part or all of a similar list (in Latin) - although the bits I've seen quoted definitely have Scotti, Picti, Calidoni, rather than Angli, Picti & Scotti as here. So perhaps this is from a different source...
Nathan Ross
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#7
I know in it are mentioned (in the section on those living on the Don/Volga) "and many other unnamed peoples" to the east.

Maenchen Helfen uses it as he thinks Ammianus was referring to it in part of his description of the Alans.

Relavant passage from Ammianus:

Well then, at the very beginning of this district, where the Riphaean mountains sink to the plain, dwell the Aremphaei, just men and known for their gentleness, through whose country flow the rivers Chronius and Visula. Near them are the Massagetae, Halani, and Sargetae, as well as several other obscure peoples whose names and customs are unknown to us. 39 Then at a considerable distance the Carcinitian gulf opens up, with a river of the same name, and the grove of Trivia,sacred in those regions. 40 Next the Borysthenes, rising in the mountains of the Nervii, rich in waters from its own springs, which are increased by many tributaries, and mingle with the sea in high-rolling waves. On its well-wooded banks are the cities of Borysthenes and Cephalonesus and the altars consecrated to Alexander the Great and Augustus Caesar. 41 Then, a long distance away, is a peninsula inhabited by the Sindi, people of low birth, who after the disaster to their masters in Asia got possession of their wives and property. Next to these is a narrow strip of shore which the natives call Ἀχιλλέως δρόμος,memorable in times past for the exercises of the Thessalian leader. And next to it is the city Tyros, a colony of the Phoenicians, washed by the river Tyras.

Note: Ammainus seems to associate the Riphean Mountains with the uppermost Carpathians.

EDIT: I'm interested in this particular part of the passage (which is a reference to the 5th century BC Sindi)

Then, a long distance away, is a peninsula inhabited by the Sindi, people of low birth, who after the disaster to their masters in Asia121 got possession of their wives and property.

Is this part of the history of the original "Sindi" that he quoted or an addition he made up?
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#8
Magister Militum Flavius Aetius wrote:
Quote:Then, a long distance away, is a peninsula inhabited by the Sindi, people of low birth, who after the disaster to their masters in Asia got possession of their wives and property.
Ammianus is obviously looking at older sources for all this material The snippet above seems to me on first reading as one of many numerous alternative versions of the old tale of the Amazons. Loosely based on Herodotus where a group of Scythian men went on an organised raid into Media (called a balc) leaving their wives to run the herds & supervise the work of their slaves (technically maybe not slaves but men without horses tied to their land - tenant farmers I suppose, but looked down upon by your average Scythian warrior) according to Herodotus the Scythians stayed in Media for 28 years, although some think they were there for 8 years, (an alternate version of the story says the men were invited to a feast by the treacherous Median king & poisoned, drugged, murdered or killed by trickery whereby the widows took up arms & remarried and moved west, although this seems a common theme amongst a lot of peoples where the warriors are murdered by their opponents at a feast.) But if a Scythian husband does not return from a balc after 7 years then a Scythian woman can consider him technically dead & claim his property (livestock,wagons etc.) & be free to choose another husband & a lot of these widows chose their farmer tenants (to be honest after a few years a lot of these wives would have had relationships & children to these men anyway) & had families with these men, supposedly the ancestors of the Sarmatians which was alright until a lot of their original husbands returned, so I suppose a lot of these families moved west to avoid conflict. Maybe originally these farmers or tenants were known as Sindi, or it could be an old tribal legend or explanation of their origin amongst them a lot like the origins of the Sarmatians. I dont know, just a thought. (I got info from ‘The Golden Deer of Eurasia: Perspectives on the Steppe Nomads of the Ancient World').
EDIT: the passage doesn't say they came from Asia, only that their masters struck disaster in Asia.
As to the tribe or people Ammianus mentioned the Aremphaei, I can find no reference to them but if we are talking Thrace, maybe due to scribal errors on the copy he was working from, or memory lapse he might have mixed up the name. There is an early Sarmatian tribe mentioned by Pliny called the Areatae or Arraei who seem to have been one of the few early Sarmatian tribes settled south of the Danube but no other source mentions this. Maybe a bit of a stretch on my part but who knows? :? If not Thrace but further north then you have to look at Olbia as there is a region southeast of there called the Tendra which in ancient times was called ‘the racecourse of Achilles' there was a bit of a cult for Achilles there and they used to hold games there so that sounds like the last region you are decribing. Tyras is Dniester River & Dnieper is Borysthenes. Basically Sarmatian (Roxolani) or Bastarnae country, at least 1st or 2nd century, before the Goths.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#9
The Sindi were in the vicinity of Phanagoria. I was just fascinated with his taking of greek sources and applying them to the modern day.
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#10
I think a lot of later Roman authors had no choice but to turn to Herodotus to get an understanding of the tribes and peoples of the Pontic & Eastern regions. I don't know if Herodotus ever visited these areas himself or just heard stories but when it comes to the Amazons and a lot of Scythian customs, I sometimes think that someone may have been pulling his leg after a few drinks of Greek wine. However Tacitus sort of confirms that women played a prominent role in Sarmatian society when he wrote much later about the Bastarnae sub-tribe the Sidoni and compared them to other Germanic tribes who were their neighbours and was disgusted that they were led by a woman (a typical Roman attitude) which sometimes makes me think that they were, if not Sarmatian themselves, some say Celtic, Germanic or Getae, may have been pretty sarmaticized regarding customs and habits. Whoever they were or wherever they came from they had a lot of interaction with Roxolani, both frequenting the various river systems like Danube, Dniester & Dnieper and doing a lot of trade, maybe a few intermarried over time and would have been hard to tell apart in looks and attire. Strabo in one of his passages actually thinks that Roxolani are not Sarmatian but Bastarnae however seeing Roxolani used the heavy contus and didn't use wicker shields like the Bastarnae, and came from the east I think that is unlikely. But the two peoples were very close neighbours and allies.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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