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The Semispatha and the Saex
#31
Quote:My guess would be that Vegetius knew that the legionary of old carried two edged weapons, one larger [i.e. a gladius?] than the other [i.e. a pugio?], and that,...

Quote:...in his own time, the Roman armoury included two swords, the spatha and the semispathium, again of differing sizes. [...] His idea was to improve the army by returning to the methods of the
past but he saw no reason why it should not have up-to-date equipment. So he gave his old-style legionaries modern weapons.
If the soldiers of the time of Vegetius would have been equipped with a sword and a shorter sword(like object), there would have been no need to return to the methods of the past (i.e. "two edged weapons, one larger than the other").
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#32
Quote:It states that spathium is an uncommon term meaning "spatha".
No, it states that spathium is an uncommon genitive plural of spatha.


Quote:If the soldiers of the time of Vegetius would have been equipped with a sword and a shorter sword(like object), there would have been no need to return to the methods of the past (i.e. "two edged weapons, one larger than the other").
You misunderstand me; my comment was not just about weaponry. Vegetius' whole treatise is a recommendation to return to the methods of the past. The soldiers of his day may or may not have carried two bladed weapons but he knew that the soldiers of the past did and, accordingly, he gave his soldiers two such weapons but modern ones.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#33
Ahh... Now I get it Smile.
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#34
My reading of Vegetius is that he regarded the legion as being largely unchanged until comparatively recent times. Accordingly, he may have believed that the two bladed weapons carried by legionaries had always been the spatha and the semispathium.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#35
Quote:
Renatus post=352559 Wrote:
Thomas V. post=352555 Wrote:This online dictionary is based on the 2002 edition of the Georges Latin dictionary: [hide]latin_german.deacademic.com/44693/semispathium[/hide] It states that semispathium means "a small spatha".
And it may be right but where is the authority for spathium and spatha being the same thing?
I ordered a printed version of the most recent (i.e. 2013) edition via interlibrary loan. I will tell you what it says about the (semi)spathium.

It has arrived :-).

The Dictionary Entry

sēmispathium, iī, n., eine kleine spatha, Veget. mil. 2, 15 u. 16. Isid. orig. 18, 6, 5.

The Translation

sēmispathium, iī, n., a small spatha, Veget. mil. 2, 15 & 16. Isid. orig. 18, 6, 5.
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#36
Quote:The Dictionary Entry

sēmispathium, iī, n., eine kleine spatha, Veget. mil. 2, 15 u. 16. Isid. orig. 18, 6, 5.

The Translation

sēmispathium, iī, n., a small spatha, Veget. mil. 2, 15 & 16. Isid. orig. 18, 6, 5.
Thanks for that. Unfortunately, it does not take the argument much further. It cites the references that we know of already and, in fact, misrepresents them. Neither Vegetius nor Isidorus uses the word semispathium; the word that they both use is semispatium. Vegetius does not relate spatha and semispatium to each other; he describes them as differently-sized gladii - and we know what we think of Isidorus' etymology!

I am tempted into indulging in some cod-etymology of my own. My dictionary gives one of the meanings of spatium as 'size, dimension'. Applying this, semispatium could mean simply 'half-size'. There would be no need to say 'half-size what'; the soldier would know that. It need not be a half-size spatha.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
#37
Quote:Thanks for that. Unfortunately, it does not take the argument much further. It cites the references that we know of already and, in fact, misrepresents them. Neither Vegetius nor Isidorus uses the word semispathium; the word that they both use is semispatium.
:?
Doesn't Vegetius mention semispathia (2, 15) and semispathiis (2, 16)?



Quote:Vegetius does not relate spatha and semispatium to each other; he describes them as differently-sized gladii[..].
"[G]ladios maiores, quos spathas uocant, et alios minores, quos semispathia nominant [...]": In my opinion it is possible to interpret this text part as Vegetius relating the spatha and the semispathium to each other.
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#38
Quote:Doesn't Vegetius mention semispathia (2, 15) and semispathiis (2, 16)?
You're absolutely right. I should have checked, especially as I have been cheerfully referring to semispathium throughout this thread! That said, with that modification I maintain my point. Vegetius does not compare the two weapons other than to say that one is a large gladius and the other a smaller one. If he had used the word semispatha, I would not be making this argument but he does not. In short, spatha and semispathium are both swords but of different sizes and not necessarily related.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply


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