07-31-2019, 08:03 AM
Nathan wrote
I can't find an original source for either version of the account - do you know of one?
Julian de Vries has provided me with most of the sources. I’ll sort through them again to see which ones are the better references.
Nathan wrote
but the 1104 soldiers executed were those among the troops who confessed to being Christian, not all of the troops or a single unit of them (assuming the governor did not maintain a unit solely composed of Christians!).
You should not be concerned about whether a while military unit was made up of Christians or not. That is not the focus. The author has compiled those numbers from an historical military organisation. The 1104 men includes officers, infantry and cavalry.
Nathan wrote
I would think 1104 a perfectly decent 'actual strength' figure for a 4th-century limitanei legion, which might be stationed somewhere like Melitene, but the appearance of the number here doesn't seem to have much foundation
Oh it exists elsewhere. However, in other examples, the officers could be missing, as could the cavalry. But exists it does.
Nathan wrote
That would be going too far! I could estimate unit structures and come up with detailed figures, but…they would be so hypothetical as to be almost imaginary.
It should be every researcher’s criteria. I have provided a breakdown of all the detailed figures and how they are part of the same organisational structure, whether it be Ammianus, Zosimus, Vegetius, Orosius, Synesios and Sozomen etc. Otherwise, it is just playing with numbers.
All unit numbers are derived from the one larger organisation, whether it be legion or auxiliary. So you have one large legion organised into cohorts, maniples and centuries. When the seniores in the legion are detached from their century, the legion size is reduced, as are the cohorts centuries and maniples. The legion then changes in size again when units are detached like in the old days of detaching the triarii to guard the baggage. This again produces different sizes for the various organisations, but not the century or maniple. However, the number of maniples and centuries is reduced. Apply the same procedure to the cavalry, again producing different size cavalry units.
The Late Roman cavalry are also following a doctrine introduced in 499 BC (Livy’s chronology), in which the Romans needed more Roman cavalry. In 499 BC, instead of allocating each legion the standard 10 squadrons, change them into 15 squadrons. The same doctrine is applied by Diocletian’s strategy for the defence of the empire. It’s not a matter of creating more armies, but making a lot of smaller armies from larger armies. The Romans did it during the siege of Veii in 406 BC as well. For the Late Roman army, if the units need to be increased, then just add seniores to every century in every unit. This is easily done as every unit, be it legion or auxiliary is based on the same organisation, or sub organisation.
What I have learnt about the Romans is, understand their military doctrines and you understand the numbers. I cannot stress that enough.
I can't find an original source for either version of the account - do you know of one?
Julian de Vries has provided me with most of the sources. I’ll sort through them again to see which ones are the better references.
Nathan wrote
but the 1104 soldiers executed were those among the troops who confessed to being Christian, not all of the troops or a single unit of them (assuming the governor did not maintain a unit solely composed of Christians!).
You should not be concerned about whether a while military unit was made up of Christians or not. That is not the focus. The author has compiled those numbers from an historical military organisation. The 1104 men includes officers, infantry and cavalry.
Nathan wrote
I would think 1104 a perfectly decent 'actual strength' figure for a 4th-century limitanei legion, which might be stationed somewhere like Melitene, but the appearance of the number here doesn't seem to have much foundation
Oh it exists elsewhere. However, in other examples, the officers could be missing, as could the cavalry. But exists it does.
Nathan wrote
That would be going too far! I could estimate unit structures and come up with detailed figures, but…they would be so hypothetical as to be almost imaginary.
It should be every researcher’s criteria. I have provided a breakdown of all the detailed figures and how they are part of the same organisational structure, whether it be Ammianus, Zosimus, Vegetius, Orosius, Synesios and Sozomen etc. Otherwise, it is just playing with numbers.
All unit numbers are derived from the one larger organisation, whether it be legion or auxiliary. So you have one large legion organised into cohorts, maniples and centuries. When the seniores in the legion are detached from their century, the legion size is reduced, as are the cohorts centuries and maniples. The legion then changes in size again when units are detached like in the old days of detaching the triarii to guard the baggage. This again produces different sizes for the various organisations, but not the century or maniple. However, the number of maniples and centuries is reduced. Apply the same procedure to the cavalry, again producing different size cavalry units.
The Late Roman cavalry are also following a doctrine introduced in 499 BC (Livy’s chronology), in which the Romans needed more Roman cavalry. In 499 BC, instead of allocating each legion the standard 10 squadrons, change them into 15 squadrons. The same doctrine is applied by Diocletian’s strategy for the defence of the empire. It’s not a matter of creating more armies, but making a lot of smaller armies from larger armies. The Romans did it during the siege of Veii in 406 BC as well. For the Late Roman army, if the units need to be increased, then just add seniores to every century in every unit. This is easily done as every unit, be it legion or auxiliary is based on the same organisation, or sub organisation.
What I have learnt about the Romans is, understand their military doctrines and you understand the numbers. I cannot stress that enough.
