11-04-2016, 09:52 AM
Robert wrote:
I agree with Nathan that there is no reason to look for a 'hidden' or 'secondary' army organisation behind the one we have. A numeri (not numerii) organosation for understrength army units would be extremely complex for modern armies, it would be totally confusing for anyone in the Roman army.
How so? If as I am led to believe a numerus was a unit of varying size, then how does a commander communicate his need for reinforcements? Please send me a numerus and then live in hope that someone would send a numerus of 2,000 men which the commander is wanting, or does he hope for the best? This is gambling. A Roman legion has a fixed number of men and a fixed number of organisations that can be easily detached.
Firstly, let’s not get into an argument about the finer details being historical or not but explore the possibility. Like a what if scenario. Let’s have a legion of 4,800 men organised into 30 maniples each of 160 men and 60 centuries each of 80 men.
Let’s say this legion is arrayed in three battle lines each of 1,600 men (10 maniples), with the first battleline consisting of the hastati, the second battle lines the principes and the third battleline the pilani.
Following the doctrine of the extraordinarii being one fifth of the infantry, by dividing the 4,800 men by five produces five units of 960 men consisting of two maniples of hastati, two maniples of principes and two maniples of pilani. Let’s call this unit structure a vexillation. Now if a commander ordered a vexillation to be sent somewhere, those carrying out the order would know the number of men and the different troop types required.
Now what if the commander decided to send the legion somewhere but wanted his camp protected. He elects to have the 1,600 pilani stay behind and guard the camp. This means a 960 man vexillation will be reduced to 640 men. Do we still call this under strength vexillation a vexillation or does it have another name? Wouldn’t it be easier to have another name so that any subordinate commander knows that what is required is two maniples of hastati and two maniples of principes.
Adrian wrote:
The two examples given in Ammianus where 300 men were taken from each unit, would you think that each group of 300 would have in itself been considered a Numerus?
Not sure who you have directed the question to but in a previous post I stated I believed they took a number of centuries from each numerus of the legion and formed then into a new numerus.
I agree with Nathan that there is no reason to look for a 'hidden' or 'secondary' army organisation behind the one we have. A numeri (not numerii) organosation for understrength army units would be extremely complex for modern armies, it would be totally confusing for anyone in the Roman army.
How so? If as I am led to believe a numerus was a unit of varying size, then how does a commander communicate his need for reinforcements? Please send me a numerus and then live in hope that someone would send a numerus of 2,000 men which the commander is wanting, or does he hope for the best? This is gambling. A Roman legion has a fixed number of men and a fixed number of organisations that can be easily detached.
Firstly, let’s not get into an argument about the finer details being historical or not but explore the possibility. Like a what if scenario. Let’s have a legion of 4,800 men organised into 30 maniples each of 160 men and 60 centuries each of 80 men.
Let’s say this legion is arrayed in three battle lines each of 1,600 men (10 maniples), with the first battleline consisting of the hastati, the second battle lines the principes and the third battleline the pilani.
Following the doctrine of the extraordinarii being one fifth of the infantry, by dividing the 4,800 men by five produces five units of 960 men consisting of two maniples of hastati, two maniples of principes and two maniples of pilani. Let’s call this unit structure a vexillation. Now if a commander ordered a vexillation to be sent somewhere, those carrying out the order would know the number of men and the different troop types required.
Now what if the commander decided to send the legion somewhere but wanted his camp protected. He elects to have the 1,600 pilani stay behind and guard the camp. This means a 960 man vexillation will be reduced to 640 men. Do we still call this under strength vexillation a vexillation or does it have another name? Wouldn’t it be easier to have another name so that any subordinate commander knows that what is required is two maniples of hastati and two maniples of principes.
Adrian wrote:
The two examples given in Ammianus where 300 men were taken from each unit, would you think that each group of 300 would have in itself been considered a Numerus?
Not sure who you have directed the question to but in a previous post I stated I believed they took a number of centuries from each numerus of the legion and formed then into a new numerus.
