03-06-2014, 12:39 AM
Adrian wrote:
I'm not sure where the 1200 man Late Roman legion figure comes from, Coello does warn against taking his work as an exact guide to establishing the size of Late Roman infantry and cavalry units.
I hope Nathan doesn’t get upset about his thread being diverted. In regard to the 1200 man legion, the king of Armenian Papa, with a body of 300 cavalry charged and put to flight a whole legion with its tribune. (Ammianus 30 1 5) For this to happen, the legion must have been small in number. In 398 AD, Stilicho ordered his brother Mascezel to suppress a revolt from Gildo. Claudian, (The War against Gildo 1 415-423) writes:
“When this advice had been accepted by his son in law, Stilicho made ready for war the most famous strengths in Mars (in the army), selecting there from special maniples from selected youth: he further prepared the fleet in the harbours of Etruria. Alcides himself commands the Herculean cohort; the king of the gods leads the Jovian. The Nervian cohort follows and the Felix, well deserving its name, the legion, too, named after Augustus, called the Unconquered, and the brave Leones (Lions) with the witness shield.”
Orosius (7 36) gives the size of Mascezel’s force at “5,000 men,” which would again indicates a legion was small in number.
When recording the restoration to the throne of Hiberia, Ammianus states that he was accompanied by “12 legions under the general Terentius. (Ammianus, 27 12 16) 12 legions at 2000 men = 24,000 men or 14,400 men at 1200 men per legion. Would a force of 24,000 legionaries be too large for this campaign?
Yesterday I discovered I had made a fundamental oversight and that is I have not calculated the size and organisation of the auxiliary units in conjunction with the Vegetius legion time frame. This is because when I research one time frame I find something relevant to another time frame so I end up jumping all over the place. My research has the size and organisation of the auxiliary units and the Praetorian Guard has found these are all based on the original extraordinarii detailed by Polybius. The same ratios that governed the extraordinarii continue through to the principate, and many of the numbers are confirmed by the sources and especially Hyginus. What I have done in the last 12 hours it to take the organisation of the auxiliaries (cohort equitata miliariae, ala miliariae etc.) for the principate and expand them in accordance with the Vegetius legion. As everything in the Roman army is governed by ratios (infantry to cavalry, legionaries to auxiliary infantry, and legionary cavalry to auxiliary cavalry), the end result has left with me with the conclusion than the Romans, when they reformed the army, have adopted the organisation and ratio (infantry to cavalry et.) of the auxiliaries for all forces in the army. And it all still points to legions of 1200 men, or with the removal of certain centuries, reduced to 1000 men or 800 men.
Another factor establishing the Romans abiding by their military ratios is the 200 men accompanying Julian at Strasbourg. In 501 BC, Dionysius (5 75) writes that when Flavus distributed the army into four bodies, he “kept one, the best, about his person.” These are his bodyguard cavalry and the number of bodyguard cavalry selected is governed by the same ratio from Flavus to Julian. The bodyguard cavalry are not additional to the cavalry force available, but are taken from the available number of cavalry. So by applying the ratio to Julian’s cavalry one’s gets a good indication of the size of Julian’s cavalry force.
So to correct a previous post of mine, it’s not about chopping the Vegetius legion up (which funny enough gets the same result), it’s about substituting the old organisation for the Late Roman army (to 400 AD) with the organisation of the auxiliary forces.
I'm not sure where the 1200 man Late Roman legion figure comes from, Coello does warn against taking his work as an exact guide to establishing the size of Late Roman infantry and cavalry units.
I hope Nathan doesn’t get upset about his thread being diverted. In regard to the 1200 man legion, the king of Armenian Papa, with a body of 300 cavalry charged and put to flight a whole legion with its tribune. (Ammianus 30 1 5) For this to happen, the legion must have been small in number. In 398 AD, Stilicho ordered his brother Mascezel to suppress a revolt from Gildo. Claudian, (The War against Gildo 1 415-423) writes:
“When this advice had been accepted by his son in law, Stilicho made ready for war the most famous strengths in Mars (in the army), selecting there from special maniples from selected youth: he further prepared the fleet in the harbours of Etruria. Alcides himself commands the Herculean cohort; the king of the gods leads the Jovian. The Nervian cohort follows and the Felix, well deserving its name, the legion, too, named after Augustus, called the Unconquered, and the brave Leones (Lions) with the witness shield.”
Orosius (7 36) gives the size of Mascezel’s force at “5,000 men,” which would again indicates a legion was small in number.
When recording the restoration to the throne of Hiberia, Ammianus states that he was accompanied by “12 legions under the general Terentius. (Ammianus, 27 12 16) 12 legions at 2000 men = 24,000 men or 14,400 men at 1200 men per legion. Would a force of 24,000 legionaries be too large for this campaign?
Yesterday I discovered I had made a fundamental oversight and that is I have not calculated the size and organisation of the auxiliary units in conjunction with the Vegetius legion time frame. This is because when I research one time frame I find something relevant to another time frame so I end up jumping all over the place. My research has the size and organisation of the auxiliary units and the Praetorian Guard has found these are all based on the original extraordinarii detailed by Polybius. The same ratios that governed the extraordinarii continue through to the principate, and many of the numbers are confirmed by the sources and especially Hyginus. What I have done in the last 12 hours it to take the organisation of the auxiliaries (cohort equitata miliariae, ala miliariae etc.) for the principate and expand them in accordance with the Vegetius legion. As everything in the Roman army is governed by ratios (infantry to cavalry, legionaries to auxiliary infantry, and legionary cavalry to auxiliary cavalry), the end result has left with me with the conclusion than the Romans, when they reformed the army, have adopted the organisation and ratio (infantry to cavalry et.) of the auxiliaries for all forces in the army. And it all still points to legions of 1200 men, or with the removal of certain centuries, reduced to 1000 men or 800 men.
Another factor establishing the Romans abiding by their military ratios is the 200 men accompanying Julian at Strasbourg. In 501 BC, Dionysius (5 75) writes that when Flavus distributed the army into four bodies, he “kept one, the best, about his person.” These are his bodyguard cavalry and the number of bodyguard cavalry selected is governed by the same ratio from Flavus to Julian. The bodyguard cavalry are not additional to the cavalry force available, but are taken from the available number of cavalry. So by applying the ratio to Julian’s cavalry one’s gets a good indication of the size of Julian’s cavalry force.
So to correct a previous post of mine, it’s not about chopping the Vegetius legion up (which funny enough gets the same result), it’s about substituting the old organisation for the Late Roman army (to 400 AD) with the organisation of the auxiliary forces.
