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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Forcibus Topography = A narrow valley of singular direction with sufficiently steep sides to have a significant impact on how light troops can manoeuvre. I understand the literal meaning to be "throat" but that could be something to pass through or something that dead ends, as in a stomach. Dead end where anything coming in gets mushed up drenched in acid and sent on it's way as fertilizer...... it's an alimentary interpretation that works quite well for a closed valley....
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(03-20-2024, 07:55 AM)John1 Wrote: Forcibus Topography = A narrow valley of singular direction with sufficiently steep sides to have a significant impact on how light troops can manoeuvre. I understand the literal meaning to be "throat" but that could be something to pass through or something that dead ends, as in a stomach. Dead end where anything coming in gets mushed up drenched in acid and sent on it's way as fertilizer...... it's an alimentary interpretation that works quite well for a closed valley....

I certainly agree with the 'narrow valley' part of this and you are right that the literal meaning of fauces is 'throat'.  It can  also mean 'pharynx' or 'gullet'.  However, when applied to topography, it means a 'narrow way', 'defile' or 'pass' and, in nautical terms, a strait.  Tacitus' fauces is 'closed' in the sense of the rear being blocked by a wood but the natural interpretation of his wording is that of a valley that, but for the wood, would have been a through way.  If he had wanted to refer to a closed valley, he could have used a term such as 'vallis clausa'.

Literally, 'forcibus topography' means 'in the defile' topography but I am not sure that that is what you mean.  I have a recollection that you once posted an image of Suetonius' dispositions that was somewhat different.  Could I trouble you to re-post it to save me having to engage in an interminable search of this thread?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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Either of these?

Ridge features:

   

Force disposition:

   

Source;
https://www.academia.edu/1280170/Battle_..._Stowe_CP1

Others from the thread,  but who knows when.... 

   

   

There's a more strategic image showing the relationship with Hunsbury Hill due to the mass abandonment of IA weapons and quern stones at what appears to be an ideal British rally point:

   

source:

https://www.academia.edu/102948828/Boudi...king_Draft

I hope that helps.... from my point of view a there is enough to instigate a thorough search of the valley and then unpick troop dispositions should there be any appropriate finds... a securely dated battlefield with finds would probably have us re-writing chapters about what we know about how such battles were prosecuted. the position at the top of the ridge, on the face of the slope or the base of the slope will vary subtly between interpreters and the passing of the day. I am comfortable to place the Romans on the ridge top, on the east facing slope at the head of the valley, but equally content if contact were made on the valley floor. I don't think we can have a hard and fast position on that with the material we have to hand.

Thanks for the input on the foricibus, it seems too subtle a point to force any change in this topographic approach but appreciated for future reference....

When you visit site do take the time to check out the view from the field gate marked here with the arrow:

   
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(03-19-2024, 02:03 PM)John1 Wrote: Don't forget how close Church Stowe is to Iceni territory (Thrapston, based on Will Bowden's definition BFT 2023). 25 miles of easy going river valley. This is the point where Watling Street is at it's closest to Iceni territory and probably the easiest route into its heartlands.

I think you said that Will Bowden suggested Iceni territory might have extended some way into Cambridgeshire. Isn't Thrapston in Northants?

In any case, the Iceni heartland was much further east. We might guess Saham Toney, Thetford or Mildenhall to be the centre of it.

Church Stowe to Saham Toney is approx 84 miles, via the difficult marshlands of the Wash and Ely. Dunstable to Saham Toney is approx 77 miles, via the well-travelled route of the Iknield Way. If Paulinus wanted to threaten the Iceni heartlands, he would have based himself around there, not further north-west. And he would have attacked while the Iceni were sacking London, or heading back home again, rather than waiting for them to regroup.

With the Romans remaining essentially static at Church Stowe (even if the Britons had a clear idea of where they were!), why would the Iceni not simply remain in their own territory and wait for their enemy to march east and face them on their own ground? Their sole victory against a Roman force (Cerealis) had been an attack on a column advancing towards them, after all.

They would have a much better chance of success by guerrila warfare than in trekking off across country to face professional disciplined troops in a prepared position. As I've said before, insurgent armies throughout history (however bold and reckless they may have appeared) have been very unwilling to do this unless they have no other choice.
Nathan Ross
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Will Bowen presented a map of Iceni-ish territory, placing that territory 1.6 miles from Thrapston, his map, his choice of definition. (BFT 2023)

   

Granted, I wouldn't want the ruler and the Bowden map out either if I were pimping Tring....

   

But the lines don't really matter, the position threatens territory whether it be heartland or not.

84/77 miles, not much to choose between them and if we are to believe Upex the Nene valley was a military feature that must therefore have been well connected.

As for the rest I think you have too many certainties that cannot really be certain, lets get back in our defiles as you had previously assured me you would.....
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(03-20-2024, 02:56 PM)John1 Wrote: Will Bowen presented a map of Iceni-ish territory, placing that territory 1.6 miles from Thrapston, his map, his choice of definition. (BFT 2023)

Hmm, it seems suspicious that the border of 'Iceni territory' exactly matches that of the modern county of Cambridgeshire, established in 1972... [Image: wink.png]

Before that the bit shown on your map was part of Huntingdonshire, I believe. Chatteris seems to be westernmost place that shows signs of Iceni influence. In any case, the Romans would want to attack the heartland, as you say, not the fringes - and it so happens that there is a road going directly there from Dunstable/Tring.

But anyway, yes, I now shall retreat to my defile and keep my head down!
Nathan Ross
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