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8 to 10th Century Roman/Armenian Casket Figures
#1
On page 29 of Ian Heath's Osprey book - 'Byzantine Armies 8886-1118', there is an illustration from an Armenian casket which depicts a number of Late Roman (I aver from using the term 'Byzantine' - yes, I am a pedant!) infantry. These poses include two infantry soldiers in period armour saluting an officer with what we would recognise as a modern-day salute in the British style, palm outwards.

Can anyone shed light for me on where the tradition of this salute comes from? Is it an Armenian custom or a Late Roman one? I wonder if it originated in the Roman Empire or has perhaps been incorporated into the military but came from elsewhere?

Any light on this would be appreciated - references rather than speculation is what I am really looking for here!

Thanks in advance.
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#2
Fascinating!
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#3
I would not like to swear by it but it has I think been said that the British Military salute comes from touching ones fore lock to ones betters in ancient times, but has become a bit more refined and regimented, indeed the order of it is where the lower rank makes the first salute that is then acknowledged by the higher ranking person.
Brian Stobbs
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#4
My interest is when this was introduced and formalised as such in the Later Roman army. The carving on the casket indicates that it is a specific military salute that is being shown by two soldiers to an officer.

[Image: 1926854_596949200394226_1238530039_n.jpg]
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#5
Quote:My interest is when this was introduced and formalised as such in the Later Roman army.

This image has been discussed before a few times I think. There are several other depictions of Roman soldiers apparently saluting by raising a hand to their helmet - Domitius Ahenobarbus frieze, the Flavius Mikkalus tombstone, and a couple of figurines as well. In some of these it appears more obvious that the soldier is touching the helmet or holding the rim, as if he's about to remove it. In others it looks more like the soldier is touching his fingers to his forehead, or even shading his eyes...

Trouble is, we don't know if this gesture was a 'salute'. The fact that the one you've mentioned looks like a modern british salute doesn't make it any more likely, I think.


Quote: it has I think been said that the British Military salute comes from touching ones fore lock to ones betters in ancient times

The modern salute comes from the act of removing the hat to a superior - when the heavy shako was introduced in the early 19th century this was difficult, so the soldier would touch the peak of the hat instead. Originally the hand was held flat, palm down (as the US army and Royal Navy do today). It was only in the 1870s that the British army changed to the 'palm out' style, apparently in emulation of the victorious Prussian army of the day.
Nathan Ross
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#6
The Australian army website says ‘The exact origin of the military salute has been lost in time but it is believed that it originated by showing that the right hand (the fighting hand) was not concealing a weapon.'
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#7
Quote:it is believed that it originated by showing that the right hand (the fighting hand) was not concealing a weapon.

One of those long-standing myths, I'm afraid! There's another about knights raising visors, and another about sailors and tarry hands... probably more too. All about as real as the story I was told as a child, that americans ate with their fork in their right hand to stop them suddenly seizing a revolver and shooting all their dinner companions... ;-)

The 'exact origin of the military salute' is shown quite plainly on old prints and illustrations, meanwhile - it comes from raising the hat.

This makes it problematic in a Roman context, as Romans did not commonly wear hats, and so had no need for a formalised gesture of removing one...
Nathan Ross
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#8
Maybe the troops in the drawing are hinting for the officer to speak up Confusedmile: Confusedmile:
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#9
Just out of interest, here are various other possibly 'saluting' Romans. The first two are from the friezes of Flavius Mikkalus (2nd C AD?) and Domitius Ahenobarbus (1st C BC?):

[attachment=9176]saluting.jpg[/attachment]

The next two are small figurines of uncertain date, and the last is a mystery to me - a woven or painted textile, perhaps? The full piece is here - looks Roman, but if anyone knows more I'd be interested in the details.


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
Nathan Ross
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#10
Quote:This makes it problematic in a Roman context, as Romans did not commonly wear hats, and so had no need for a formalised gesture of removing one...

They didn't commonly wear hats until the 3rd century AD. Then the Phrygian cap became popular, and was quickly replaced by the Pileus Pannonicus.
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#11
Nathan, thanks for posting those images. I wonder if I might impose and ask about the larger context of the first two?

The reason I ask is that the Armenian casket carving is of two soldiers saluting a presumed officer. Interesting details include the fact that the two soldiers are posing in almost identical stances with their hands raised and their shields grasped in a formal manner and not by the inner handle. The 'officer' is represented slightly differently in that he carries what I assume is either a spear or a military standard and his own shield is held by the boss (and in the right hand). This scene is a formalised one and tells a little story of two soldiers recognising/saluting an officer - or perhaps the standard he carries.

Your first two images are also in a wider context, I think, and I am curious about what that context is and if it bears similarities to the casket carving?

The remaining images seem isolated ones, I think!
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#12
Quote:Just out of interest, here are various other possibly 'saluting' Romans. The first two are from the friezes of Flavius Mikkalus (2nd C AD?) and Domitius Ahenobarbus (1st C BC?):

[attachment=9176]saluting.jpg[/attachment]

The next two are small figurines of uncertain date, and the last is a mystery to me - a woven or painted textile, perhaps? The full piece is here - looks Roman, but if anyone knows more I'd be interested in the details.

So it's like an early form of 'Chapeau a vous, Mon Seigneur!', cool! Confusedmile:


[Image: eminencegrise.jpg]
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#13
Quote:Nathan, thanks for posting those images. I wonder if I might impose and ask about the larger context of the first two?

The first is from the tombstone relief of Flavius Mikkalus, a Roman equestrian officer of the late 1st / early 2nd century. I can't find a decent picture of it online, but the figure raising his hand is one of two groups of soldiers - he is possible 'saluting' the approaching Mikkalus, who is shown on horseback.

The second image is from the frieze of Domitius Ahenobarbus, showing a census scene. It's very naturalistic, and the soldier in question might just be mopping his brow (to show the scene is happening in summer?) Here's the relevant section:

[Image: 879331766.jpg]


Quote:The reason I ask is that the Armenian casket carving is of two soldiers saluting a presumed officer.

It might be worth finding a picture of the original casket. The drawing shows three figures and the 'saluting' pair, but it's not clear that they were originally juxtaposed like that! The man with the spear might have nothing to do with the two men raising their hands...

However, the pose with the right hand raised and the left resting on a lowered shield does seem to be echoed by the third and fifth images I posted above, so it surely means something...
Nathan Ross
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#14
Thanks, Nathan. That's a good point about the casket composition. I hadn't thought of that.
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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