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The War with Gildo 415-423
#1
Claudian, (The War against Gildo 1 418-423):

Haec ubi sederunt genero, notissima Marti robora, praecipuos electa pube maniples disponit portugue rates instaurat Etrusco. Herculeam suss Alcides Ioviamque cohortem rex ducit supoerum, premitur nec signifier ullo pondere: festinant adeo vexilla moveri. Nervius insequitur meritusque vocabula Felix dictaque ab Augusto legio momenque probantes invicti clipeoque animosi teste Leones.

The Loeb translation of the relevant sections is as follows:

“When this advice had been accepted by his son in law, Stilicho made ready for war the most famous regiments in the army, selecting there from special companies of picked men: he further prepared the fleet in the harbours of Etruria. Alcides himself commands the Herculean cohort; the king of the gods leads the Jovian. The Nervian cohort follows and the Felix, well deserving its name, the legion, too, named after Augustus, that well called the Unconquered, and the brave regiment of the Lion.”

Can anyone provide translations for the above terms marked in bold? I think “companies” should read “maniples.”

Any help would greatly be appreciated.
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#2
Haec ubi sederunt genero, notissima Marti robora, praecipuos electa pube *maniples* disponit portugue rates instaurat Etrusco. Herculeam suss Alcides Ioviamque *cohortem* rex ducit supoerum, *premitur nec signifier ullo pondere: festinant adeo vexilla moveri.* Nervius insequitur meritusque vocabula Felix dictaque ab Augusto *legio* momenque probantes invicti clipeoque animosi teste Leones.

The only three I can see are maniples, cohorts and legion, which I have starred. I believe the cohorts and maniples all relate to the various units that are mentioned. The Herucliani Seniores and the Ioviani seniores were the two most senior western Late Roman legions, the Leones seniores was an Auxilia Palatina unit, the Nervii could be one of the Auxilia Palatina Sagittarii Nervii units mentioned in the Notitia, not sure about the Felix and Augusta units?

The passage I put the other stars between probably translates a bit differently than it should do I think?
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#3
Umm... Stilicho was dead in 418-423. Just saying. Bonifacius was count of Africa at that time. You're thinking 398-403, right?

The first word, regiments, equates to the maniples in the text.

"selecting there from special companies of picked men" - I think this is a duplication of the previous phrase regarding famous regiments.

"and the brave regiment of the lion" - this reads to me as "and shields that bear the brave lion"

As VV said you're looking at the Leones Seniores, Heruculani and Iovani, and also Saggitarii Nervi. The Augustan legion could be II Augusta, which Luke Ueda Sarson equated with a unit in one of the field armies. The Felix could be any number of units. Possibly one of the Honoriani Felices units in this case.
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#4
My understanding is as follows:

a. the first "regiments" is expressed through a metaphor in the Latin text: "notissima Marti robora", literally "the most famous strengths in Mars (which is a metaphor to say "in the army"). "The most famous strengths in the army" becomes "the most famous regiments" in the translation;

b. "companies" is the translation of "maniples". "Praecipuos electa pube maniples", literally "special maniples from selected youth", which in the translation becomes "special companies of picked men";

c. the last "regiment" is again not present in the original text. "clipeoque animosi teste Leones" would be, literally "...and the brave Lions with the witness shield". From my understanding, "witness shield" should indicate that the emblem of the shield bears testimony to the name (and spirit) of the unit (ie, Lions)
Gabriel
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#5
Quote:My understanding is as follows:

b. "companies" is the translation of "maniples". "Praecipuos electa pube maniples", literally "special maniples from selected youth", which in the translation becomes "special companies of picked men";

c. the last "regiment" is again not present in the original text. "clipeoque animosi teste Leones" would be, literally "...and the brave Lions with the witness shield". From my understanding, "witness shield" should indicate that the emblem of the shield bears testimony to the name (and spirit) of the unit (ie, Lions)

Actually, could that translation be taken literally? "special maniples of selected youth" would coincide with the Protectores Domestici of the time.

As for the Leones, that was more or less what I got from it. "and the brave lions with [their emblem] witnessed on their shields" might be a good extraopolation of the direct translation.
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#6
Adrian wrote:
The Herucliani Seniores and the Ioviani seniores were the two most senior western Late Roman legions, the Leones seniores was an Auxilia Palatina unit, the Nervii could be one of the Auxilia Palatina Sagittarii Nervii units mentioned in the Notitia, not sure about the Felix and Augusta units?

Just to make sure I’ve got it right, do you mean the Herucliani Seniores cohort and the Ioviani seniores cohort are detachments from the Herucliani Seniores legion and the Ioviani seniores legion?

For this same incident, Orosius (7 36) numbers the above units at, according to one translation “about 5000 men” and another at “5000 men.”

Maiorianus wrote:
the first "regiments" is expressed through a metaphor in the Latin text: "notissima Marti robora", literally "the most famous strengths in Mars (which is a metaphor to say "in the army"). "The most famous strengths in the army" becomes "the most famous regiments" in the translation.

Thank you Maiorianus. It now all makes senses. The metaphor was causing me the problem. I was looking for a Latin equivalent to regiment. Now for years on this forum some members get frustrated with me believing maniples still exist for this time period (398 AD) and earlier time periods, but the number of references to maniples especially those stated by Ammianus and others cannot be ignored. Now we have Claudian mentioning maniples.

So far I am coming to the conclusion a cohort numbers 600 men. There are references to 500 man bodies but these are men who have special abilities, and are chosen to swim a river or climb a small mountain. There are 500 men mentioned being part of a mutiny, but I do not believe these references should be associated with the armies official organisation. I cannot see the Romans having a 500 man cohort of swimmers or rock climbers in the army. Chose them from among the army, yes I support this but nothing more.

Here we have Claudian giving us a break down of the units and Orosius supplying the size of the force. I am working on the principle the 5000 men amounts to eight divisions each of 600 men, which is 4800 rounded. For me, the empirical data for the Late Roman army still indicates up to 398 AD the organisation follows that of the Vegetius legion. The Vegetius legion of 6000 men can be divided into five divisions of 1200 men or six divisions of 1000 men. However, I am finding other evidence in the primary sources regarding military matters that rules out the six divisions of 1000 men. There is also a mass of Pythagorean data that rules out the 1000 man legion, but I won’t bore you with that.

Evan wrote:
Umm...Stilicho was dead in 418-423. Just saying. Bonifacius was count of Africa at that time. You're thinking 398-403, right?

Claudian, (The War against Gildo 418-423) is the passage numbers as found in the Loeb edition and are not dates. The actual date for the event as given by Claudian should be 398 AD.

Evan wrote:
As VV said you're looking at the Leones Seniores, Heruculani and Iovani, and also Saggitarii Nervi. The Augustan legion could be II Augusta, which Luke Ueda Sarson equated with a unit in one of the field armies. The Felix could be any number of units. Possibly one of the Honoriani Felices units in this case.

Now this is where my head starts to hurt about the Late Roman army…. Saggitarii, Palatina etc. I keep looking up what they mean but after reading them, by my mind goes blank again. Oh for the good old days of hastati, principes and triarii.

I think the problem is I need to know what the troop types are in such units as Saggitarii, Palatina etc. Surely they must have at least two troop types per unit.
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#7
Quote:Now we have Claudian mentioning maniples.

Normally I'd agree that there was a maniple sized unit in the 5th century army, but Claudian is not the best source for that. Claudian was a poet and would have therefore made a LOT of references to earlier authors, just like Merobaudes later totally ripped Claudian off, or Sidonius Apollinaris used terms like "Gelonian" in his descriptions of barbarian invaders.

I believe that in the 5th century, probably around the time of Constantius III and Aetius (in the West ofc) you begin to see a transition towards the army of the Strategicon. Part of this transition was the Numerus (a maniple sized unit of 2 centuries) commanded by the Ducenarius. This was suggested by Pompeius Magnus (who also explains it in his book on the 6th century army he wrote), and I thoroughly agree with him.

Quote:Just to make sure I’ve got it right, do you mean the Herucliani Seniores cohort and the Ioviani seniores cohort are detachments from the Herucliani Seniores legion and the Ioviani seniores legion?

I always saw it that the Herculani Seniores and Iovani Seniores were part of a greater unit of "Herculani" and "Iovani," each numbering 2400 men (sort of like the limitanei legions) but divided up into legionary "Vexillationes" as seen fit, creating an "Iuniores" and "Seniores" over time but could still be recombined into a united legion.

I do agree that Palatina cohorts number 600 men on paper (probably 400 in reality), but I do not agree a legion numbered 5200-6000 men by this time. I could agree there were still a few that when all of their Vexillationes combined together came to that number, but only under earlier late antique emperors like Diocletian or Constantine. By the time of Stilicho these vexillationes had formed permanent independent identities and were no longer part of a whole Legion.

Quote:Claudian, (The War against Gildo 418-423) is the passage numbers as found in the Loeb edition and are not dates. The actual date for the event as given by Claudian should be 398 AD.

My bad.

Quote:Now this is where my head starts to hurt about the Late Roman army…. Saggitarii, Palatina etc. I keep looking up what they mean but after reading them, by my mind goes blank again. Oh for the good old days of hastati, principes and triarii.

I think the problem is I need to know what the troop types are in such units as Saggitarii, Palatina etc. Surely they must have at least two troop types per unit.

AFAIK even units of "Sagitarii" probably had heavy infantrymen in front.

I always thought this was a matter of what the rear rankers were equipped with. E.G. Lanciarii had Lancaea or Verruta for their rear ranks, Ballistarii had Crossbows (or possibly the even more controversial Manuballista), and Sagitarii had bows in their rear ranks.

Of course, there's also the debate these were completely specialist units, which had archers, light infantry with javelins, or artillery. I think it was a mix of both and depended on where you were stationed. E.G. the Ballistarii of Gaul likely had crossbows, while the Ballistarii Theodosiaci of Syria and Anatolia likely had Scorpiones, Manuballistae, or Onagers, to partake in sieges during Sassanid campaigns
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#8
Quote:The Herucliani Seniores and the Ioviani seniores were the two most senior western Late Roman legions, the Leones seniores was an Auxilia Palatina unit, the Nervii could be one of the Auxilia Palatina Sagittarii Nervii units mentioned in the Notitia, not sure about the Felix and Augusta units?

The units mentioned appear to be the Herculiani and Ioviani Seniores, as you say, the Sagittarii Nervii, Felices (seniores or iuniores), Augustei, Invicti Seniores and Leones (seniores or iuniores). All units under the western Magister Peditum in the ND. Aside from the first two, which are Legiones Palatinae, all are Auxilia Palatina units.

This makes things tricky, as of course we don't know how the auxilia were organised. It would seem, from the Concordia inscriptions, that they were in numeri. But by this date, any military unit could apparently be called a numerus... I do rather suspect that Claudian is using his terms - cohort in particular - rather loosely here.



Quote:I do agree that Palatina cohorts number 600 men on paper (probably 400 in reality), but I do not agree a legion numbered 5200-6000 men by this time.

I've never seen anything (aside from the confusing references here) to suggest that the auxilia palatina were organised into cohorts. Nor do we have any idea at all how many men were in an auxilium (or numerus, or whatever). There have been many guesses, probably some are more or less right, but no evidence, and no certainty possible. Vegetius at least gives the figure of 6000 for a legion, however unlikely that might seem to us!



Quote:The passage I put the other stars between probably translates a bit differently than it should do I think?

*premitur nec signifier ullo pondere: festinant adeo vexilla moveri.*

Yes, what does that mean? Anybody?
Nathan Ross
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#9
Best I can get is "under the pressure of their weight the signifers hurried to move the banners."
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#10
Quote:.*premitur nec signifier ullo pondere: festinant adeo vexilla moveri.*

Yes, what does that mean? Anybody?
The translation In Lacus Curtius, presumably taken from Loeb, is:

'No standard-bearer feels the weight of his eagle, so readily do the very standards press forward.'

This, like the rest of the translation quoted by Antiochus, is obviously very free; there is, for instance, no word for 'eagle' in the Latin. My literal translation would be:

' . . . nor is the standard-bearer pressed by any weight: so do the banners hasten to move.'
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#11
Quote:My literal translation would be:

' . . . nor is the standard-bearer pressed by any weight: so do the banners hasten to move.'
I realise, on reflection, that moveri is the present passive infinitive of moveo. Therefore, the last part of this translation should read:

'so the banners hasten to be moved.'
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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