03-06-2014, 02:31 PM
Wait a moment Mylord Robert the Batavian! We are talking of two different things I suppose ...
I'm not saying the the Roman influence ceased to exist in Gaul, it would be absolutely idiotic!
In fact, we, French, Italians, Spanish, Belgians, Portuguese, Catalan, Romanian and many others we are still speaking Latin, then in Gaul the Roman influence is present everywhere, think that still today in Europe there is an invisible Limes (actually more strong than the old Roman Limes!) running exactly alongside the ancient limes, it's called 'linguistic barrier' separating two worlds: one one side the Romance Languages, direct descendants of the Latin civilization, on the other side the Germanic linguistic area, the Roman civilization didn't die on 476 of course! but this is another matter. Isn't it? :wink:
In fact, actually, here we are talking of Merovingian Units preserving the Roman organization and marching under Roman standards in the VI century! And this this is false.
It's false until you can you proof the existence of such Roman Units in the Merovingian Kingdom. Can you? I doubt. Anyway, If you can, I'll be the most happy man of Europe! And you'll be the most famous historian of the last century! Publish the news and your name will be famous like that of Heinrich Schliemann! 8+)
About English, if you can quote one single word that is Latin and not a Norman import in English Language, also in this case I'll be very happy! We have another hidden Romance Language to discover under the old Language of Shakespeare! Sadly also in this case, I have many doubts .... :|
About Draco: I don't see why you insist in telling us that the Saxon Draco was a Roman relic when probably it was simply one of the various Germanic standards used in the Early Middle Age in Europe deriving from the Sarmatians and the Huns.
About words and titles, look: The Langobards used in Italy words as Dux, Comes, Gasindius, Gastaldus, Arimannus, Iudex, Minori Homines, Equites Caballarii, Maiores et Potentes, Sequentes, Minores, and then? Do you think that the use of such a mix of old Latin and Germanic words and titles means that the Langobard Army was organized following a Roman fashion? No, it was not! The Langobard army was organized following the structure of the Langobard society, it was based on the Langobard political structure, and it followed the Langobard social and economic organization based on the 'Fare' , that is, extended tribal clans. The Langobard warfare was based on Duces who fielded armies based on Heavy Cavalry formed by Gasindii and Potentiores, backed by Medium Cavalry formed Minori Homines and then the infantry formed by Arimanni (free men) who were mainly shielded bowmen.
Is there something of Roman in this Langobard organization using Latin words as Duces and Comites? No, there is nothing of course! As there was nothing of Roman in the Merovingian Armies or in the Anglo Saxon Armies, nothing!
The tale of Procopius is only a tale and it is not a proof of anything, as only a tale is the tale of Plato about Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος
Atlantis)
Plato, Timaeus 24e - 25d (trans. Bury) :
"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state [Athens] in our [the Egyptian's] histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power [Atlantis] which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Herakles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Herakles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya [Africa] within the columns of Herakles as far as Aigyptos (Egypt), and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [in Italia]. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."
but this is not a source, it's only a nice tale by Plato!
Isn't it?
I'm not saying the the Roman influence ceased to exist in Gaul, it would be absolutely idiotic!
In fact, we, French, Italians, Spanish, Belgians, Portuguese, Catalan, Romanian and many others we are still speaking Latin, then in Gaul the Roman influence is present everywhere, think that still today in Europe there is an invisible Limes (actually more strong than the old Roman Limes!) running exactly alongside the ancient limes, it's called 'linguistic barrier' separating two worlds: one one side the Romance Languages, direct descendants of the Latin civilization, on the other side the Germanic linguistic area, the Roman civilization didn't die on 476 of course! but this is another matter. Isn't it? :wink:
In fact, actually, here we are talking of Merovingian Units preserving the Roman organization and marching under Roman standards in the VI century! And this this is false.
It's false until you can you proof the existence of such Roman Units in the Merovingian Kingdom. Can you? I doubt. Anyway, If you can, I'll be the most happy man of Europe! And you'll be the most famous historian of the last century! Publish the news and your name will be famous like that of Heinrich Schliemann! 8+)
About English, if you can quote one single word that is Latin and not a Norman import in English Language, also in this case I'll be very happy! We have another hidden Romance Language to discover under the old Language of Shakespeare! Sadly also in this case, I have many doubts .... :|
About Draco: I don't see why you insist in telling us that the Saxon Draco was a Roman relic when probably it was simply one of the various Germanic standards used in the Early Middle Age in Europe deriving from the Sarmatians and the Huns.
About words and titles, look: The Langobards used in Italy words as Dux, Comes, Gasindius, Gastaldus, Arimannus, Iudex, Minori Homines, Equites Caballarii, Maiores et Potentes, Sequentes, Minores, and then? Do you think that the use of such a mix of old Latin and Germanic words and titles means that the Langobard Army was organized following a Roman fashion? No, it was not! The Langobard army was organized following the structure of the Langobard society, it was based on the Langobard political structure, and it followed the Langobard social and economic organization based on the 'Fare' , that is, extended tribal clans. The Langobard warfare was based on Duces who fielded armies based on Heavy Cavalry formed by Gasindii and Potentiores, backed by Medium Cavalry formed Minori Homines and then the infantry formed by Arimanni (free men) who were mainly shielded bowmen.
Is there something of Roman in this Langobard organization using Latin words as Duces and Comites? No, there is nothing of course! As there was nothing of Roman in the Merovingian Armies or in the Anglo Saxon Armies, nothing!
The tale of Procopius is only a tale and it is not a proof of anything, as only a tale is the tale of Plato about Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος
Atlantis)Plato, Timaeus 24e - 25d (trans. Bury) :
"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state [Athens] in our [the Egyptian's] histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power [Atlantis] which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Herakles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Herakles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya [Africa] within the columns of Herakles as far as Aigyptos (Egypt), and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [in Italia]. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."
but this is not a source, it's only a nice tale by Plato!
Isn't it?
