Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355?
#16
Quote:ducenario de numero ...ianorum promotorum

I've seen the argument that the term first appears in cavalry. Your reference to the early protectores domestici and to Valerius Iovinus who was "something (my latin isn't that great) of the Promoti" (presumably Equites Promoti) would support that.

It's interesting as to when it first appears in infantry, which seems to have been around the time of Vegetius' writings (i.e. about 390-ish) as far as I am aware.

But we still don't know exactly what this position was - the Perge tablets will hopefully shed some light.

A little bit more back on topic, does Ammianus mention particular regiments in the Gallic army of the 350's?
Reply
#17
Quote: "something (my latin isn't that great) of the Promoti" (presumably Equites Promoti)

Seems so - I notice another transcription of the text gives the title as ducenar[io? equitum] promo/tor(um)...


Quote:does Ammianus mention particular regiments in the Gallic army of the 350's?

He does. Mainly auxilia, with a couple of other infantry units:

In connection with the murder of Silvanus (AD355): Cornuti and Bracchiati
At the battle of Strasbourg (AD357): Cornuti, Bracchiati, Batavi, Regii, Legio Primani
Sent to capture Alamanni prisoner (AD358): tribune of the Scutarii
Lupicinus' expedition to Britain (AD360): Batavi and Heruli 'and two units of Moesians' (numerisque Moesiacorum duobus)
Troops selected from the Gallic army to go east (AD360): Heruli, Batavi, Celtae, Petulantes

We could also mention the Iovii and Victores, associated with the expedition to Britain in c.368.

So it would appear that the Heruli auxilium had existed since at least the 350s...
Nathan Ross
Reply
#18
Indeed, it seems it did. Although early on I highly doubt it was actually comprised of Heruli, considering that in 350 they lived north of the Crimea which was outside the Roman sphere of influence.
Reply
#19
Quote:
Nathan Ross post=351198 Wrote:
Milo Cross post=351196 Wrote:.if I estimate 10,000, will I make a fool of myself?

No, that sounds highly plausible, I'd say. We have Ammianus's statement that 8000 auxilia were with Silvanus on his journey north - these might also include Batavi, Regii, Petulantes, probably others like the Heruli and Mattiaci, plus mounted troops (equites Bracchiati, etc). He may have collected more field army soldiers from their billets as he moved up to Cologne.

I'd disagree about the Heruli, considering it's more likely the Heruli were created with the contingent that followed the Grethungi over the Danube in 378 (They may have also entered the empire in 405 with Radagasius, especially considering many of his troops were drafted into the army). But 10,000 is a plausible estimate if you assume the field army was divided up. The Salii would be plausible though.

Billeting soldiers would also explain why such a large number of field army regiments are named after cities - e.g. Prima Flavia Mettis (Metz), Cortoriacenses (Either Durocortorum or Cortoriacum), etc.

I'm going to have to correct you here Evan. The Heruli (also called Eruli in some texts) were certainly around in at least the 350's, because Ammianus records them as such. They were normally brigaded with the Batavi and when they did so they shared the same standards.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
Reply
#20
Quote:Indeed, it seems it did. Although early on I highly doubt it was actually comprised of Heruli, considering that in 350 they lived north of the Crimea which was outside the Roman sphere of influence.

Again, a correction here Evan. The Heruli were recruited before 355, and another Gothic tribe, the Taifali, were also recruited around the same time. You might find it useful to reread the first volumn of the Loeb translation of Ammianus when you get the time.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
Reply
#21
Hmm...

I actually have an online version of Ammianus, I was merely not aware the Heruli were recruited at the same time as the Taifali. This is helpful for my research on the federates of Aetius and Attila at Chalons, thank you VV.
Reply
#22
Ducenarius is also named as a senior rank in the agentes in rebus in Christopher Kelly's Ruling the Late Roman Empire and AMH Jones.
Thanks
Reply
#23
Just on the Heruls, Ammianus mentions that when Constantinius felt threatened by the success of Julian in the west that he demanded the strongest troops of Julian to be sent east, the Batavians, Heruls & Celts. Julian protested that he had promised these troops that they would never be sent beyond the Alps as they had their homes across the Rhine. He would not have dared argue with the emperor if these Heruls or at least some groups of them were not living beyond the Danube or Crimea which was already beyond the Alps so some groups of Heruls must have moved west near the Batavi on or near the Rhine, probably by ships via Jutland??? :? Ammianus Book XX Chapter 4. Confusedmile:
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Reply
#24
Quote:some groups of Heruls must have moved west near the Batavi on or near the Rhine, probably by ships via Jutland?

I've seen two explanations for this. The first, 'migrational', theory is that the Heruli divided at some point during a trek south from their presumed homeland near the Baltic. One group went east and settled north of the Black Sea, the other, smaller, group went west and ended up somewhere between the Franks and the Alamanni.

Interesting, but it seems rather a grandiose construction on a very slight foundation...

The second theory is that there were two different peoples called Heruli - or that the Romans just gave the same name to two peoples with similar ones. Or, in fact, that the western Heruli were actually called Aeruli...

But, as I mentioned before, we shouldn't assume that soldiers in auxilia units all came from the 'tribal' group that gave the unit its name. In fact, the names might have been chosen to reflect the fighting qualities (?) of a particular barbarian group, rather than the ethnic composition of the unit itself.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#25
Great discussion so far guys! :-)
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply


Forum Jump: