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good examples of legionary shovel?
#1
Hi All,

I've been looking for some decent photos of legionary shovels or modern replicas. I found this:

https://hcmc.uvic.ca/grs/mdb/imgs/I10.10618.jpg

But it has no scale or handle. Do you know of any good images?

Also, have any groups tried to duplicate a marching camp in recent times? Thanks!
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#2
That's not a shovel. It's a mattock. I don't know about shovels but to the best of our knowledge most Roman spades were made of wood with just an iron edging to the blade, although a handfull with all-iron blades are known. Understandably, normally all that survives of most spades is the metal edging.

This is a typical surviving example of spade edging:
http://www.archaeology.wyjs.org.uk/romanweb/rw47.html

Incidentally, this thread has been posted in the wrong forum. It should have been posted in the History and Archaeology forum, not Rules and Announcements.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#3
Here is a Roman shovel (well two actually) found in Saalburg: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schaufel
It was likely made by forgewelding the sides of two pieces together to shape the socket.

One has the handle preserved and I love the forgemarks, you can see how these were used to draw out the metal with a peen hamer.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#4
The piece with the handle was found at Zugmantel but is now in the Saalburg museum. I`ve made a replica of it last year for the Archäologischer Park in Xanten
Als Mensch zu dumm, als Schwein zu kleine Ohren...

Jürgen Graßler

www.schorsch-der-schmied.de
www.facebook.com/pages/AG-Historisches-Handwerk/203702642993872
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#5
Quote:That's not a shovel. It's a mattock. I don't know about shovels but to the best of our knowledge most Roman spades were made of wood with just an iron edging to the blade, although a handfull with all-iron blades are known. Understandably, normally all that survives of most spades is the metal edging.

This is a typical surviving example of spade edging:
http://www.archaeology.wyjs.org.uk/romanweb/rw47.html

Incidentally, this thread has been posted in the wrong forum. It should have been posted in the History and Archaeology forum, not Rules and Announcements.

Crispvs


Would wood hold up to the shear volume of dirt the legionaries tore thru? The descriptions of their earthworks just boggles the mind.

Sorry about posting in the wrong forum.....
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#6
He Jurgen, Did you forge weld it? It looks like it is two pieces joined, is it?

@rhodes If a large amount of the work was done with the dolabra (pickax), the wear on the shovel would be limited, as it would be used to scoop dirt into baskets to be hauled away.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#7
Not this Saturday, tomorrow, but a week from then I, along with colleges will be at the RAM Museum in Exeter. So I can get you a totally original pic of the Exeter shovel wooden remains item....plus I have this item with scale in "Roman finds from Exeter"...Holbrook/Bidwell. This will be at least 7 days from posting this though.
Kevin
Kevin
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#8
Would much appreciate the scale drawing of that item! I may have a go at forging an iron rim like that some time in the future. Ahhh , so many projects still wanting to do ....

By the way, I discovered the link in my signature to my gallery was not working. It is now :woot:
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#9
Robert: It`s a 2-piece-construction. I didn`t forge-weld it because they wanted it good-looking AND cheap Wink
<<<i think that forge-welding two sheets in these dimensions is quite a challenge...

The tool looks very much like a modern shovel but, with its straight handle, is to be used like a spade
Als Mensch zu dumm, als Schwein zu kleine Ohren...

Jürgen Graßler

www.schorsch-der-schmied.de
www.facebook.com/pages/AG-Historisches-Handwerk/203702642993872
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#10
Will do Robert.


Remember to check this poist in 8 days time for original. I am going to try to get the Holbrook/Bidwell pick from the book online tonite.....I make no promises though.
Kevin]


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Kevin
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#11
Not great but at least its original.
Kevin
Kevin
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#12
So is that shovel on Wiki really Roman? If so what are the dates attributed to it? My German/Dutch? is basically non-existent.

Might have to make one of these. Would 1/4" work for this?

CAC
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#13
There are three spade blades discussed in "The Καμβeστριον and other Roman Military Equipment from Thracia" article with pictures and dimensions.
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#14
Two of these are very similar to the Zugmantel / Saalburg finds.
@Randallmoffett: they are. dating is up to 3rd century. 1/4" sheet is too thick. I began my reco with a 5mm sheet in a shape about 1/3 smaller than the original. Forged it to the original shape. The blade then had ~2mm on the edge and 5mm in the centre where the "tongues" hold the handle
Als Mensch zu dumm, als Schwein zu kleine Ohren...

Jürgen Graßler

www.schorsch-der-schmied.de
www.facebook.com/pages/AG-Historisches-Handwerk/203702642993872
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#15
Good research of a famous reconstructor.I show his FB because in his website there is no so much information about the original:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=...667&type=3
Radostin Kolchev
(Adlocutio Cohortium)
http://legio-iiii-scythica.com/index.php/en/
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