Santa Maggiore Mosaic

[AMELIANVS]

Incidentally, we seem to have a whole new topic going on here - might it be possible to split it off into a new thread, from Pavel's post of earlier today? 'Santa Maria Maggiore Mosaics' maybe?

O.K. for me.

[Conal]

Could the different colours at the front of the crest be a metal plate, as per the Chi Rho type plates you see?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I suggested that earlier, and that's what I think it is.

[F. MAXIMILIANVS ITALICVS]

in the art, it could be just a copy of hellenistic types of helmets, like it was depicted in visible classical monuments, so it also could be hellenisti helm.

[Conal]

I suggested that earlier, and that's what I think it is.

Sorry, missed that bit :unsure:

[F. MAXIMILIANVS ITALICVS]

Yes it shoudl be! I think this helmet could be artistic connection of real late roman helmet used by the army and in art favorit hellenistic types.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Could the different colours at the front of the crest be a metal plate, as per the Chi Rho type plates you see?

Maybe, maybe not. We will never know.

[XorX]

I think the shoes depicted might be similar to that of the Kemathen Warrior, whose shoes had a rather low edge and would have been more like a slipper. This could have been depicting lacing across the top of a similar style of shoe. Many Alemanns and Franks were serving in Roman Regiments at the time.

?? No shoes have been found with the Kemathen warrior??
The ones used in the reconstructions are based on the Stilicho dyptichon (as well as the trousers) and are campagi like the Deurne finds with no lacing up the leg

[Flavivs Aetivs]

@XorX

Yeah we discussed that on another forum. The shoes on the Kemathen warrior reconstruction were a thorsberg pattern I think.

[Diocle]

Diocle, they are depicting Bipartite Ridge Helmets.

Furthermore it is believed the Richborough Helmet, an Intercisa-Type, had an attic-style crest. That is unknown, and obviously there is artistic stylization, but it is clear what they intend to depict.

Mag, it's a problem connected with the theory of the vision, we use archetypes stored in our brain to see and understand images, our vision is never objective, to get an objective view, we must carry out a critique of the expressive language of single image, this is to say that you see a Ridge Helmet while I only see an Attic Helmet, I don't see any 'classicization' in the clothes of the characters so I don't understand why our artist should have reserved all his classicism only for the Helmet ...

I hope this image can help you to understand what I mean, do you see a rabbit or a duck, Evan?




I see Attic Helmets, but probably I don't have your extended fantasy ... :wink:

[ValentinianVictrix]

What I'm seeing in the Mosaic are Intercisa type helmets with an Attic type helmet browguard attached. Unlike monumental carvings or painted artworks its very difficult to represent what your trying to depict using tiny bits of coloured stone, which basically what Mosaic's are. This would account for the rather odd look given to the helmets.

[markusaurelius]

They clearly look like Intercisa /Berkasovo type helmets to me as well. The "evil" eye spots on the front and the neck guard plate is unknown on Attic helmets and is clearly on these later helmets. Even the crests look nearly identical to coins of the period, with a definitively different front color of gold or silver. A couple of the helmets even have what appears to be a crest box with red feathers in lieu of a metallic crest. Both of these also known in the later period.

In the context of the photos and period (late roman) it does seem more likely than attic helmets IMO.

[Nathan Ross]

They clearly look like Intercisa /Berkasovo type helmets to me as well.

Possibly. Unfortunately they also bear a very strong resemblance to the helmets portrayed on the wall of the Dura Europos synagogue (here). Unless you want to backdate the Intercisa to c.249, that's a problem for this identification.

[attachment=9033]Helmets.jpg[/attachment]

[Crispvs]

I think this rather good thread of a year or two back would be pertinent to this discussion. I recall it being a very stimulating discussion at the time. Unfortunately several server changes have meant that a lot of the images have disappeared, but think it is still worth a look all the same.
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...helms.html

Crispvs

[markusaurelius]

Good comparison Nathan. But i do think that the shape of the crest, evil eyes and neck guard plates is unique to the mosaic in discussion. The attic helmet is long known in various imagery during the roman period. I personally think that this mosaic has far more parallels with the ridge helmet.