Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Replica swords
#16
I don't think Dave is being harsh here at all.

For the most part… the "Off the shelf" stuff made in India blades are extremely cheep knock-offs of other extremely cheep knock-offs of blades that somebody else made who didn't do the research in the first place! Like Xeroxing a picture and copying each "Copy" of a "Copy" at some point it looses all clarity. It has a "Form" or "looks like" a sword… but it would be better used as a boat anchor. It totally lacks any "Authenticity."

As long as they make "Cheep" junk and sell it to an unsuspecting gullible person… then there will be a market for such garbage. Why they make and sell things that aren't even close to authentic or "Replica" in any sense of the word is far being one's imagination, when it takes about the same effort to make it right and accurate.

Maybe they make them so thick for liability purposes… so they don't break easily. However, I am sure that those out there who make swords would say that the thickness might not matter if they were made incorrectly… they are probably more prone to break anyway.
Reply
#17
Quote:.

Maybe they make them so thick for liability purposes… so they don't break easily. However, I am sure that those out there who make swords would say that the thickness might not matter if they were made incorrectly… they are probably more prone to break anyway.

I know for a fact that isn't true. A friend of mine once vertically rotated a cheap Indian gladius with the blade suddenly separating from the hilt. Fortunately no one else was around.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
Reply
#18
Yes, the tangs of most indian swords are dangerously weak, often welded rat-tails!
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
[Image: fectio.png]
Reply
#19
It really disgusts me how some of the things that are made incorrectly sell. If i try to look on youtube or google images for a gladius, etc, I am sad to see some REALLY crummy ROMAN STYLE " toys " which uneducated people take for real accurate roman empire relics. Like please, if i only had my hacksaw for every time i saw one.

About thickness, i believe that a razor sharp blade was not the reality of the gladius. I am sure that i can speak for all gladius' in the gladius family. It would have been very difficult for any soldier to achieve razor edges with the tools available. Yes they were sharp enough to cut a limp off if need be, but remember they were stabbing swords, and with rust and constant contact with the scabbard etc, a sharp blade would soon dull.
Samuel J.
Reply
#20
Quote:- yes Indians could produce sharp and handy swords 150 years ago!
Well yeah, that was back when there was still a pretty good chance that whether a sword handled decently could turn out to be a matter of life and death for a lot of buyers. These days, it's, "Well, I'd like something better, but I have to pay off the car, looking for cheaper health insurance..."

On the other hand, we do rely on food for our lives, and look at what we eat! (Not to name names or anything...)
Dan D'Silva

Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.

--  Gamma Ray

Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...

--  Thin Lizzy

Join the Horde! - http://xerxesmillion.blogspot.com/
Reply
#21
Quote:What does everyone here think is too thick?? I've read that original Roman blades had on average a 5-6mm thickness along the "spine" of the blade.
Yes "at the spine" that will work.
Here is the issue,the cheap reproductions are that at the spine and still half that at the edge.
As a blade maker I DO NOT consider that a blunt blade.
What it is,a 1/4" bar of pointed steel beveled on the sides to give a center line. It's no sword blade more a *prop* my opinion,may as well carve something from wood with the proper shape and,paint it.
What leaves me baffeled,these are acceptable for most reenactors.
I'm a WW2 reenactor and,the example I give alot is,if I showed up with the .22 rifle I use to hunt rabbits and,called it an M1 Garand,because it is shaped basically the same and,is made of wood and steel well,gentlemen that would not work but,for *Romans* it seems pointy piece of steel with a grip is close enough to pass muster.
Reply
#22
Here is a great pic of some original & amazing state or preservation Roman swords. You can really see the shape that they have along the cross section.


[attachment=8947]p1040139_213.jpg[/attachment]


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
Reply
#23
Good picture,shows exactly what I'm saying :-) They are thick but,only where the need to be. compare the blade and,it's geometry to the tang.
This CAN be done with a blunt blade and,still not make a crowbar.
The bevels on the cheap swords are just for show,there is a massive amount of extra steel,I've reground several now and,usually at least remove 1/3 of the blade thickness by the time it's finished.

Why are these blades made this way? Simple,starting with a flat bar of steel cutting the blade profile and,grinding the rest, it is faster,easier and,cheaper and,why not,if the bulk of your customer base is only interested in something that looks like a sword as long as it costs less than $200 then,that is the way to go!
I will give credit where it is due,the Al Hammd blades I have seen had one piece tangs that,I wouldn't worry to much about breaking and,some of the blades aren't as heavy as others. Did one that was MASSIVE! took longer than just making a blade from scratch to grind :eek:
I doubt very much the sword market will improve any time soon,here is why.
There are these big debates on tunic colors,shoes,helmets etc. (no one would wear a trooper helm,correct?) but,when it comes to the Roman soldiers primary weapon,the tool of his trade,close enough as long as it's cheap,right?
Having been a real life soldier,in a real life army,I have to laugh. Yes,uniforms,badges,gear all very impportant but,the one idea that is drilled in your head,NOTHING you wear or,carry is more important than your weapon,not even close PERIOD!
Misplace a helmet,buy a new one,misplace a weapon,that's another matter,wouldn't be supised if the Romans had a similar point of view.
Reply
#24
Does anyone know the time frame of the earliest example of a gladius with a obvious distal taper? Was it normal to forge a gladius with a tapered blade? I've heard the claims from some people who've handled archaeology finds which they described as "sharpened crowbars," due to their blade heaviness and lack of balance.
Reply
#25
"Mark Morrow Mainz and am quite happy with it and have a matching Pugio on the way"

From the point of view of accuracy, I'm a little worried by that statement. In what way does the pugio match the Mainz sword?

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#26
Guys,

Hi! I am sorry I missed this conversation earlier. Let me try to clarify things about "Indian" swords and blades.

1. Not all "Indian" producers are the same.
2. Deepeeka produces their swords in full tang, I will not say things I dont know about other manufacturers in this region.
3. The reason swords blade being shipped from India are non-sharp, that India does not allow swords for individuals, as can be purchased in Europe or USA or other places off internet or off the shelf. These are treated and classified as "weapons". We have to apply for a licence to produce, and have limits on annual quantity that we can produce. Thats why the shortage of swords and backlogs from Deepeeka in the market. Export of weapons is not allowed. The moment we make them non sharpened, they classify these as replicas- since apparently, "they cannot kill". And that is our line of business.

:-( :-( :-(

So, right now, we will continue to supply non sharpened blades.

Regards

Gagan
Reply
#27
Ha, that was a poor choice of words on my part.

My Morrow pugio will be a type that matches the time period of my sword is what I meant to say.

I think we all have to make compromises regarding quality vs. cost vs. time of delivery vs. matching our custom gear with our off-the-shelf gear. We all want to jump right in and get as "geared up" as quickly as possible - I know I did with my Greek Panoply and wasted a lot of hard earned dollars.

I should have read RAT more back then.

Morrow's work is very solidly constructed and I am not worried about pieces flying off or simply wearing out from constant usage. I mean my swords get whacked hard a lot against bales of hay, trees and even mannequins. I invested in a half dozen oak wasters, but no kid would rather use a waster than a sword. No, my swords are not sharp, although they can be, as that's not my personal goal, my goal is getting kids interested in this era because in my city, Philadelphia, they have dropped traditional history as a subject of study. "History" is a component of the reading program so it all depends on what book the teacher decides to have the kids read. There are no more "history teachers" in my local public schools so unless the teacher has some personal interest in ancient history the kids get little context or passion from the teacher when they do read a book that has some ancient historical event described. Most kids I work with have no clue that Ancient Greece and Rome are the foundations of Western Civilization, but they are interested in handling my swords and before they do that they have to learn a bit about who made them and why.

OK, I guess this has nothing to do with Replica Swords so I will get off my soap box rant now.
Joe Balmos
Reply
#28
Quote:I am not in ANY WAY knocking Albion or anyone else, in fact I have a Mark Morrow Mainz and am quite happy with it and have a matching Pugio on the way. When I asked Mark if he could use a cheaper lower quality steel for my Mainz he said he only uses the good stuff as that's what his customers ask for. From a business point of view that makes a lot of sense, why make stuff with limited market appeal.

That's hillarious - I've got Mark working on a Mainz gladius in the style of my pugio (Also made by Mark) right now, and I didn't even think of asking for lower-quality steel. Good to know I didn't waste his time asking for something he wouldn't make. :razz:
-Ryan

-Cave a sinistra manu utebatur pro bellator.
Reply
#29
Quote:... in my city, Philadelphia, they have dropped traditional history as a subject of study. "History" is a component of the reading program so it all depends on what book the teacher decides to have the kids read. There are no more "history teachers" in my local public schools so unless the teacher has some personal interest in ancient history the kids get little context or passion from the teacher when they do read a book that has some ancient historical event described.

Quite the most depressing thing I have heard for some time.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
Reply
#30
It is indeed all about blade geometry, not just edge, but as Dave has correctly pointed out, there is a HUGE range in what you can make and still have a sword so blunt you can give it to a toddler. For the thickness of a toddlers spoon (or theespoon) is 0.5 mm. At 0.5 mm, a blade will NOT cut anyone handling it. So the whole legal issue does not occur with a correctly made blade either. All it takes is the will to produce a decent blade.

The point of distal taper ... well, get a copy of Miks, visit a few musea and you can see for yourself Roman swords did often have distal taper. The spine goes down to 3 or 4 mm. I do not recognise that statement of "archeologists" in any of my practice of looking at and at times even handling swords. But the best way to tell is to get a good replica made to the archeological data and fit that with a period hilt of the correct dimensions and feel how that handles. For a museum piece lacks the hilt, which also to some part determines the feel of a sword. And they do not take kindly to me or you taking a few practice swings with their relic, even wearing white cotton gloves :wink:
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
Reply


Forum Jump: