Tekije Belt Buckle Help

[Doc]

Hello All,

Does anyone know if the Tekije belt buckle is cast solid or is it hollow sheet with repousee ?

Thanks in advance

[caiusbeerquitius]

The latter.

[Doc]

Thanks Christian,

I thought it was stamped sheet. Many buckles are just rounded sheet. However, may repros of the Tekjie always cast the buckles.

I think the belt plates are also stamped or incised and that cup is just soldered to the surface.

Cheers

[Crispvs]

"However, may repros of the Tekjie always cast the buckles."

Just like all the heavy, cast figural type 'B' plates we see being worn on re-enactors' belts, despite virtually all the originals being made of thin, embossed sheet. I think the belief is that casting is simpler and quicker, but the Colchester stamp shows that the Romans themselves stamped plates using formers, which would be even quicker if modern suppliers could get their minds away from the idea that copper-alloy means bronze and bronze must be cast, whatever the state of the evidence.

Crispvs

[Titus Marius Secundus]

I never knew that makers were using casting to make their belt plates, type b. I was under the impression Rado does because he casts EVERYTHING that i have seen him make.

I have to say that stamping is a very efficient way of making the belt plates. The belt plates that i have made are made by using two parts, male and female, producing the ring, bulls eye, and the runners to hold a rod with brass balls on the ends. With a hammer and the female die alone, you place the plate face down into the part and tap flat the plate also producing a very sharp image.

My buckle is solid though, and i would be interested to know more about sheet brass being used.

[Crispvs]

The plates you are talking about are certainly type 'B' plates, but of the concentric circle style. By 'figural' plates I mean type 'B' plates featuring embossed/repousee images of the wolf and twins, Emperor Tiberius and cornucopia, chasing animals or acanthus leaves. I am aware of a handful of acanthus leaf plates which were cast but the majority of them, and all of the known examples of the other designs, were stamped.

Crispvs

[Doc]

Thanks Crispvs,

I agree......once you have the dies.......you can stamp out a plethora of plates. Casting is time consuming and takes more material. With respect to repros, I will never purchase anything that is cast when it should not be. I would have purchased from Holger if things were cast since in my opinion he is the best at casting.

On another note.....Crispvs.......are those concentric circles incised and the little cup cast then soldered in the center of the circles?

Cheers

[Crispvs]

I've never heard of that, but you never know, as there is great variety among the concentric circle type. Normally the central boss is raised from sheet in the same way as the concentric circles. I can think of at least one though which had a large headed rivet put through its centre to either form or increase the height of the central boss (I'm not at home right now so I can't look at the relevant book), so it is within the realm of possibility that they could have soldered a central boss onto one. I just can't think of an example like that. There are a number of important catalogues that I don't have though, so there may be someone else who knows more than me.

Crispvs

[Doc]

Hello Crispvs,

You are correct about the rivet in the center. I am not sure why I thought otherwise. However, as you can see on the attached photos, there are concentric type circles on the face of the plates. Then it appears as if there is some other ring with the rivet holding it in place. Do you think the center was enameled?

If you then compare the belt plates and the plate on the buckle, you will notice that the buckle plate central ring has little incised lines while the other belt plates do not. Does this suggest that the buckle and its plate is a different find than the other belt plates.

Also, on the belt plates.......top row......the front of one of the plates is missing. What is that backing? Is it the silver that was rolled from the edges towards the back?

On another note.....what is this button? Is it for sword suspension or a frog piece belonging to a pugio system?

Cheers

[Doc]

I was looking atthe Deepeeka reproduction of the Tekije belt plates and they are ok.....not the greatest since the fine detail present on the originals is not obvious at least to me.

Anyway, the repro has a small cup with the rivet in the center. However, from the attached original in my previous post I do not see such a cup. Its possible that from the top view I cannot really tell the actual shape.

Does anyone have a side view showing how the center looks.....to see if its a cup or whatever shape it is?

Thanks

[Crispvs]

Thanks for those pictures. As I am sure you know already, there is little consistency in the alloys used to make belt plates, so without a detailed catalogue reference, I could only guess at the metal used for the backing of the plate. I would presume it to be a copper-alloy but past that, without further information I could not say unfortunately. I do not have the report on those particular plates.
The buckle may have been part of the same belt set, or it may not have been. There is probably no way to tell. There is plenty of evidence for mixed sets of belt plates, so I don't think that a non matching buckle plate would have offended Roman tastes.

As to the other object, without a profile view I really couldn't say, as I can't see what is on the back of the disc (which would be the key to understanding its function). Thanks for posting it up though.

Sorry not to have been able to be more helpful.

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

I would think looking at this buckle it is made up from two structures where there is a punched plate and more solid metal scroll work for the hinge attachment soldered to it.

[Rado]

Very detailed on the topic:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...ry-ad.html

[PhilusEstilius]

Where Rado has given more detail in the link about this buckle it tends to confirm my ideas that the buckle is indeed both punched and also has solid metal soldered to it, for the scroll work with studs and rivets is very similar in style to those on many daggers with hinged suspension D loops like these I made on the Velsen and other daggers.

The scroll work on the buckle shown by Doc has become loose and so all the studs and rivets have fallen out of the more heavy metal that makes up the hinge mechanism.
Here is a picture that shows the tiny rivets used on the Velsen hangers where the buckle would have had larger ones.
[attachment=9028]100_0396Small.jpg[/attachment]

[Doc]

I looked at the thread from Rado. How do we know the shape is an upside down bell? Because somebody said it was? The picture posted is very fuzzy and poor in quality. How do we know it's not a thick disk that when it sits on top of the plate it creates the illusion of something raised? To me the photo is inconclusive and can show either possibility.

Also on the other thread, Christian mentioned two belts? I see that there are two different buckles on the other thread where one appears to have incised lines in the inner circle. The same belt plate has a buckle that is punched sheet with decoration soldered on. The buckle here is rounded in shape.

However, the other buckle appears flatter and could have been cast.

I agree that maybe enamel was used but not by filling the entire cup but filling just the small rivet head.

Does anyone have other photos outside of the ones from Roma Victrix?

The belt plate from the Roma site do not all show upside down bells in the center. Some of the motifs are different.