Promotion in a Vexilatio

[Nathan Ross]

not so many soldiers or normal centurions were deployed from the legions to the praetorians before Septimus Severus.

There were quite a few of them from the 1st C onwards, as shown in career inscriptions - the transferred centurion served three terms in the Urbani, Vigiles and Praetorians respectively, and commonly (but not invariably) moved straight on to the primipilate. The earliest known case, I believe, dates from the Neronian era but the practice really picked up in the 2nd century. Obviously it was limited by the number of Guard centurionates available, but it seems to have been a way of fast-tracking capable (or well connected) centurions into tribunates and higher equestrian posts. Dobson, Mann and Summerly discuss this, amongst others.

But, as you say, this isn't directly relevant to the appointment of centurions 'in the field'...

[John Moxey]

Hi guys

A really fascinating discussion, from my perspective. It did raise more than a few questions and observations, a couple of which I will pitch in here as it seems a good point to do so...

If there were 60 centurions per legion, plus and at any one time there were a good percentage dead or injured, plus another percentage potentially travelling back and forth (if that theory is correct), at any one time the active number of actual centurions could have been very low, especially by the end of campaign season during a time of conquest.

I assume the same would hold true for promotion etc of centurions with auxiliary cohorts and marines. Later on the same would be true for Praetorians and urban cohorts?

I can understand perhaps legions stationed near to Rome, travelling to a central ceremony, but from Britannia (for example) that would seem very restrictive.

It also raises another question. Many legions and Auxillia were raised far from Rome, for example IX Hispana. Centurions would no doubt ship out from Rome to start recruiting, along with kit etc. however I assume some could transfer from other legions in the area.... Otherwise the lead time to create a legion could be a big problem, even for Caesar and the legions he raised in transalpine Gaul before his conquest of Gaul (XI and XII if I remember correctly... I think he also raised IX and X just before?) if I also remember correctly he started raising those legions before he had senate approval? I assume before Augustus that the Imperateur would deal with field promotions and the appointment of his own officers?

After Augustus, were all officers, not just centurions, appointed by the emperor or at least the central command (under the paradigm where centurions were)

I also imagine that what happened during a settled period, in a settled area (such as Southern Gaul in 1st century) versus what happened in Britannia 50ad - 100ad would be very different. For example, looking at the allied forces in 2nd world war, appointments and promotions may well be ratified by central command, but they were put in place by commanders on the ground with no grand ceremony... Whereas during peacetime time was a luxury they can indulge in and while a promotion relies upon recommendation, it often has exams and ceremonies associated with it.

To me that would seem more realistic. Ie an ideal model, for peacetime, and a workable model when not. That of course could be just my modern lack of sensitivity to the Roman way, but then the Romans were quite pragmatic.

[Frank]

If there were 60 centurions per legion, plus and at any one time there were a good percentage dead or injured, plus another percentage potentially travelling back and forth (if that theory is correct), at any one time the active number of actual centurions could have been very low, especially by the end of campaign season during a time of conquest.

Theoretically 59 not 60. 9 x 6 plus 5 for the 1st cohort. But usually much more, called supernumerarii. We know of cohorts which had up to 11 centurions even if max 6 of them could command a centuria. The others worked in the staff of the legatus augusti pro praetore, the province governor and leader of the entire exercitus (army of one or more legions plus auxilia). A lot of centurions as well as tribunes, principales and ordinary soldiers (singulari) were busy administering the province. Not all of them were supernumerarii. If you look to the daily report of any unit in the roman empire, you always see a group of soldiers detached to the governors HQ. The legati augusti pro praetore also detached staff for propraetors and procurators of provinces in the neighbourhood, which had just a few auxilia or even no units at all.

We can be sure, that a lot of soldiers of Varus' legions survived the glades variana in Teutoburg Forest, because they were in Belgica or anywhere else in Germania busy with administration.

I assume the same would hold true for promotion etc of centurions with auxiliary cohorts and marines. Later on the same would be true for Praetorians and urban cohorts?

There is technically no difference between centurions of the different units. However, the rank (and payment) is different. Legionaries have a higher rank than auxilia soldiers and they are higher than fleet soldiers. Looking to the cohorts in Rome the praetorians are highest rank, followed by the cohortes urbanae and the vigiles. That has something to do with tradition and social rank. In most auxilia non-roman-citizens were allowed. In the fleet and the vigiles even fredmen. Some centurions of e.g. the auxilia were provincials but others optiones and other principales from the legions promoted to centurio of an auxilia as a first step of their further career.

It also raises another question. Many legions and Auxillia were raised far from Rome, for example IX Hispana. .... I assume before Augustus that the Imperateur would deal with field promotions and the appointment of his own officers?

In the late republic, the commander of the army aka propraetor/proconsul was responsible for promotions. Depending on how far you go back in roman history you will see more centurions elected by the soldiers. Regarding the higher officers, most of them are selected by the commander. They are often friends and clients of the family. However there was a need to give jobs (e.g. tribune) to members/clients of other families, too. Tribune was part of the cursus honorum. And sometimes legates were appointed directly by the senate. The quaestor was even elected by the people of Rome, but usually not a political enemy of the commander.

Technically, there was no difference between the republic and the empire if it comes to promotions of centurions. But, there was just one "superproconsul" and commander, which was the empire himself with his imperium proconsulare. All legati augusti pro praetore were just subcommanders without imperium. Therefore it is still the same procedure: the commander decides, not the subcommander. Well, that brings up an interesting question: could a proconsul of a senatorial province (e.g. Asia) promote his centurions? Because he had a proconsular imperium of his own given by the senate and usually a few auxilia. But honestly I don't know, and practically no proconsul with a brain acts against the emperor.

Looking to new legions, it must have been a great day for all the principales of an army, when the proconsul raised a new legion. Lots of them became promoted. Sometimes veterans were called back into service with now the higher rank of a centurio.

After Augustus, were all officers, not just centurions, appointed by the emperor or at least the central command

That was my point. Regardless of this ceremony and how mandatory it really was, the important point is: Centurions and higher officers were promoted by the emperor! Even dismissals of every single soldier needed an official document from Rome. A copy of every dismissal was even stored in Rome. The roman empire was the biggest buerocracy of the world until the European Union was established. Well, not counting the Chinese Empire of course.

[Nathan Ross]

I can understand perhaps legions stationed near to Rome, travelling to a central ceremony, but from Britannia (for example) that would seem very restrictive.

Yes, I think we'd need some quite compelling evidence to support this 'ceremony' idea... :-|

Many legions and Auxillia were raised far from Rome, for example IX Hispana... the lead time to create a legion could be a big problem, even for Caesar and the legions he raised in transalpine Gaul before his conquest of Gaul... if I also remember correctly he started raising those legions before he had senate approval?

IX Hispana were probably named after service in Spain, rather than being originally raised there. You're talking about the legions of the late republic now, of course, which in many ways were quite different to the imperial model. Most of Caesar's new legions of the Gallic wars were raised in cisalpine Gaul (i.e. northern Italy), and some were perhaps of dubious citizen status - only the cispadene territories (south of the Po) had full citizenship at that point; north of the river only had the 'latin right', although there were several citizen colonies up there too.

But you 're probably referring to the Alaudae legion, which Caesar raised himself from among the noble youths of southern Gaul. They were later given the numeral V, and were an unusual expedient. But by the period of the Gallic and civil wars, many legions had become more or less the private military forces of their commanders anyway, paid for largely by the commander himself - or promised pay in arrears as the spoils of victory.

These legions would be raised and (supposedly) discharged en masse, perhaps using a cadre of centurions and promoted veterans from the other legions in the field. Vegetius (Epitome II,5) probably preserves some details of republican practice gained from the writings of the Elder Cato; he gives four months as the minimum time needed to train a legion up from scratch. By the empire, things had changed, with legions as standing formations.

[Crispvs]

There was a good thread on centuriones a few years back. For a look at it (plus a reminder of what RAT used to look like when some us joined it), try this link:
http://romanarmytalk.yuku.com/topic/1047...vy1gZX5nzI

Regarding news about the public's opinion of emperors, I don't think you needed to go to the trouble of having someone travel to Rome and back for the latest news. The Romans had a pretty good postal service and if the preserved correspondence of people like Cicero and the younger Pliny is anything to go by, officers serving with units in far flung places would probably only have been a week or two behind with the news (dictated by the speed of the horses and the distance to be covered) most of the time. That is almost certainly why in AD69, commanders all over the place started making bids for the throne apparently within days of Nero's deposition and death. Only the four who actually did make it to Rome and win the purple are known to most people these days (or for that matter, mentioned by Tacitus etc) but numismatic evidence proves that several otherwise unknown provincial governors and army commanders minted coins to pay their soldiers with which proclaimed themselves as emperor before AD68 was over. The fact that none of these made it doesn't change the fact that they had probably all been informed of Nero's fate by letters from acquaintances in Rome and in all likelihood had been keeping keeping abreast of the ongoing situation for a while. We can easily point to a letter writing culture which would have ensured that anyone thinking of taking independent action would already have had a good idea of what the score was. We know too, from the Vindolanda evidence, that ordinary soldiers could receive mail, and this may be one reason for the numerous known instances (especially during the third century AD) when soldiers forced an often unwilling commander to make a bid for the throne. They had enough information to be dangerous, while he had enough information to know exactly what his chances were.

"A cornicen is not needed at the century-level as the troops are close enough to shout at"

You've never had to hear shouted commands on a windy day, have you Mark?

Crispvs

[Nathan Ross]

a reminder of what RAT used to look like when some us joined it), try this link:
http://romanarmytalk.yuku.com/topic/1047...vy1gZX5nzI

Ah, nostalgia! Whatever did happen to Sander van Dorst? He was one of the reasons I originally joined RAT, over a decade ago...

That is almost certainly why in AD69, commanders all over the place started making bids for the thrown apparently within days of Nero's deposition and death.

News of the mutiny of the Rhine legions against Galba apparently reached Rome in eight and a half days - but this would be via the cursus publicus, with messengers riding horse relays. An average traveller would take considerably longer - about a month between Britain and Rome, at least.

The Orbis mapping tool has been mentioned here several times as a good way of judging journey times within the empire:

ORBIS - mapping

[Mark Hygate]

.......................
"A cornicen is not needed at the century-level as the troops are close enough to shout at"

You've never had to hear shouted commands on a windy day, have you Mark? Crispvs

Yes I have! And remember, the entire century are contiguous and the centurion is next to them and not the other side of a parade ground.

Apart from the organisational research supporting that number - you also have to be pragmatic. Taking the earliest maniple period you have the centuries fighting side-by-side in blocks. If the horn-blowing were at the century level, then there would be mass confusion! No one would know which horn to follow!

Having the centurion hollering, screaming and shouting with a voice that all his century would be used to hearing is more than practical and all that is needed. You only need a horn in the middle distance to co-ordinate a group of centuries (in a 'cohort', for example) or to attract the attention to a central 'flag-waving' direction to give army-level commands.

In addition - 60 centurions does indeed seem to be the 'standard' number from Polybian manipular until Late Republic; and then (most probably) Augustus further enhanced the most senior to be the Praefectus Castrorum and thus provide a professional military man into the legion command structure so that he could 'help' the political appointments above him - whilst minimising the change, selling it to the 'army' as an additional promotion, making each centurion actually closer to the primus pilus position and thus 'not messing with the Sgt's Mess'! :wink:

[Crispvs]

"You've never had to hear shouted commands on a windy day, have you Mark? Crispvs

Yes I have! And remember, the entire century are contiguous and the centurion is next to them and not the other side of a parade ground."

Well, not trying to burst the bubble, but we quite regularly find that when training on a windy day, the normal noise of shields and weapons knocking against other equipment and the jingling of equipment is multiplied by the wind, which also buffets shields around, often noisily. Even when we are marching in close formation and the centurio (who has a strong voice which generally carries well)is just a few feet away, his shouted commands are often difficult to make out clearly, carried away by the wind and further obscured by the increased level of noise. That is my own experience of shouted commands on a windy day. A trumpet with a standardised set of calls gets around this problem.

Crispvs

[Mark Hygate]

.............
Well, not trying to burst the bubble, but we quite regularly find that when training on a windy day, the normal noise of shields and weapons knocking against other equipment and the jingling of equipment is multiplied by the wind, which also buffets shields around, often noisily. Even when we are marching in close formation and the centurio (who has a strong voice which generally carries well)is just a few feet away, his shouted commands are often difficult to make out clearly, carried away by the wind and further obscured by the increased level of noise. That is my own experience of shouted commands on a windy day. A trumpet with a standardised set of calls gets around this problem.
Crispvs

Not at all, but I think you are missing an important element - and this, for perfectly valid reasons is one of the things re-enactors miss.......the fact that they shouldn't consider themselves alone!

The really important orders are all given at a level above the century - whether they be:

- march towards the enemy
- halt
- open ranks and have the velites (sic) retire
- close ranks
- advance/retire the rear centuries
- open the maniples
- form testudo to receive arrows
- and all the rest

They are all given to a whole line of centuries fighting/moving side by side - not to individual ones. Once formed up for battle - very few orders will be given directly by the centurion - and those he can shout. The furthest he will ever be is around 10 paces away - and only the front ranks have to hear him, the rest can follow what the others do.

Context is everything. :wink:

[Frank]

We know from some ancient reports (e.g. Arrian) that a roman army aka exercitus (usually more than one legion) was divided into larger groups of units (some 1000 men per group) on the battefield. Such a group was composed of several legionary cohorts, auxilia, allies and sometimes even alae. Every group was commanded by a legate, tribune or praefect. Depending on what commanders have been available.

I guess these group- (or wing-) commanders needed the cornicens mostly. Some cornicens standing close to these commanders trumpeting commands, other cornicens standing directly behind the centuria (perhaps near to the optio) repeating these commands, so that the signifers and the centurios near to the frontline could hear the command of the group-commander. I think that this makes most sense. At least I see no way, how e.g. a tribune and wing-commander should communicate with his centurios during a battle otherwise.

The communication between the army commander, usually a legatus augusti pro praetore, and these group-commanders was perhaps done by couriers or by trumpet signals, too. Unfortunately we don't know exactly from ancient sources how this worked.

A centurio standing max 15m from his guys should not need a cornicen to communicate with his guys. It would be even counterproductive, because a legionary would have a hard time to distinguish, if a signal came from his cornicen or from the cornicen of this other century, who is also just a few meters beside him.

Coming back to the OP, we have no clue, how such a group on the battlefield e.g. a wing was called. I guess vexillatio would fit perfectly. Even if it is a vexillatio on the battlefield in this case. Basically a vexillatio is just any group of soldiers, often a group bigger than a cohort.