Thuringia is just a province in Germany. In the Middle Ages, Germany wasn't a united country and Thuringia was an autonomous state just like all of the other regions in Germany. Thuringians could be considered to be "German" just like a Parisian could be considered "French".
And theywere, as franks, divided in many independant kingdoms.. all the "french" doen't live in "franken" yet, Why so much "agressive" averment just for an ancient name? :errr:
The Sauromatian is the Alanic groups of Goar and Sambida, who served the Empire loyally from 414 to 453
Hi Evan, I know we are straying off topic a bit but are you sure that Sidonius is referring to Alans here as I think late Roman writers like Sidonius would make a distinction between Alans and Sauraomatians which I assume would be Iazyges or earlier Sarmatians who lived in Hungary from 2nd Century onwards and probably had some settlements in Gaul. Although Iazyges were mainly horsemen around the time of the Marcomannic wars after living in the wetlands of Danube and Tiza rivers in Hungary for over 250 years, I would think that their descendants would live rather sedentary lives and probably had a large infantry component in their fighting forces and developed the use of shield. As for possible Sarmatian settlements in Gaul as opposed to Alan settlements see map below. Taken from Bachrach paper""The Alans in Gaul'. According to Bachrach in his paper there was a Sarmatian colony at Amiens as well as Sermaise, Sermoise, Rheims and Sermiers.
[attachment=8960]Alansettlements.jpg[/attachment]
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Quote:And theywere, as franks, divided in many independant kingdoms.. all the "french" doen't live in "franken" yet, Why so much "agressive" averment just for an ancient name? :errr:
I know that, I'm merely looking for primary and secondary authors as information about them in the 5th century is very, very scant.
A good point, but there's also the factor that "Sauromatian in use of the shield" has more literary value than "Alan in use of the shield," and wording choice often affects Sidonius' writings.
@Michael Kerr: i'm not fund of the names typology. For example, Amiens is more from Samarobriva Ambienos than frome an Alanic name, and was a city with a fabricae before the germano-alanic instalations on the litus saxonicum and the gauls.
The same thing was done for the Burgundians ("townname-ingens") and the recent istorians and archeologists are commingback on this hypothesis to show that's a little bit far venture, (for this last example some names are post-burgundiantimeframe).
Quote:@Michael Kerr: i'm not fund of the names typology. For example, Amiens is more from Samarobriva Ambienos than frome an Alanic name, and was a city with a fabricae before the germano-alanic instalations on the litus saxonicum and the gauls.
Hi Alex, when I quoted Bachrach he did not state that Amiens was originally a Sarmatian name for the city & I see that it is your home town, just that at some time in the 4th Century there was a Sarmatian settlement established in the area as it was obviously a strategic river crossing point in Gaul, and more settlements in a few other districts and later in the 5th Century some Alan settlements after Rome came to an agreement with the Alan King Goar. Coming from Australia, whose oldest city Sydney is just over 200 years old I can understand that there would be a lot of dispute over the origins of the names of French cities and towns, some originating before the Romans conquered Gaul over 2000 years ago. I only put in Bachrach’s map to make a point about Sarmatian and Alan settlements in Northern Gaul and how Sidonius, who was located at Clermont I think, would be able to know that Sarmatians were distinct from Alans. I have no idea on toponymy or the origins of French town names on the map, but have a keen interest on Sarmatians and Alans but Bachrach makes a good case. I shall include some books from Bachrach’s bibliography from his paper regarding the naming of some towns below which he used in his paper to justify his conclusions as to the origins of some town names. You may have better luck than me as I can neither speak or read French.
Auguste Longnon_Les Noms de lieu de la France (Paris 1920-28) 133, no. 534
Auguste Vincent_Toponymie de la France (Brussels 1937) 30
A Dauzat and Ch. Rostaing_Dictionnaire etymologique de noms de lieux en France (Paris 1961) 8-10
For modern spelling of the Alan place-names see Dictionnaire des Communes (Paris 1961) 6-7
And on Sarmatian names
Albert Grenier, Manuel d'archeologie gallo-romaine Vol I (Paris 1931) 398ff. I think that Google books has a French language version of this book.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Ha ok
No problem, i was just worning about this old works about the names, this is like the ones about the personn's names to conclude from wich ethnical groupe they're from, at the Vth/VIth i don't think that we can do this ^^
Although we hear of Alan settlements in 5th century Gaul, I was just wondering about various Sarmatian settlements from the previous century including Amiens. Like I said I don't know enough about toponymy that's Bachrach but I was reading about the Vermand treasure consisting of various artifacts of Sarmatian origin found in Picardy including a shield boss so when it was mentioned previously about Sidonius's reference to Sauramatae skill in use of shield I got interested.
See link below. Just thought it was interesting. Apologies for getting off topic again.
Quote:various Sarmatian settlements from the previous century including Amiens
Is it possible that that equites catafractarii ambianensis had some sort of Sarmatian connection? There are two gravestones from Amiens, apparently from an (earlier?) unit simply called the numerus catafractarii. The names of the men are Valerius Durio (CIL 13, 3493) and Valerius Zurdiginus or Zurdigix (CIL 13, 3492). The latter in particular sounds like he might have had a non-Roman ethnic origin, and the inscription has the initials for Dis Manibus, implying a 3rd or earlier 4th century (perhaps) date.
Yes, i'm living in for work, sad town
Unfortunatly there is nothing aviable of the fabricae. Only some stones of the ancient walls.. Amiens was inside the wars with England, then Spain, then Germany and , as laon, well destroyed in the WWI... :/
There is some models and archeological drawings of the roman city at the citymuseum, but i can't find the picts i took (i think i have only focussed on the merovingian items ^^ )
@Nathan Ross: unfortunatly this is not my favorite period, so i havent any anwser. "Ambiani" was the name given to the neightbouhoods, so this could be affected to the south for the hightways, of the city for the fabricae, or the north with the saxons settlements for the litus.. will seach about it but i havent any infos before the Vth yet.
![[Image: %24CIL_13_03495.jpg]](http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/bilder/%24CIL_13_03495.jpg)
