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08-25-2004, 04:41 PM

I'm starting this as a response to the fact it began getting discussed in a completly unrelated forum! 
 
The question was, what size of ring is best to use for Roman Maille? I use 14 guage galvanised steel wire that I get at a Hardwear store. I then use a nail that is about 1 canadian Cm in diameter, that is... I have no idea in Imperial (Cut me some slack I'm Canadian). My legion has 2 shirts made out of this. Our centurion's and mine. We will be making another or more then 1. Our 3 older shirts from 5 or so years ago are made with I believe 15 guage steel wire (galvanization is gone now) and using an inner diameter of 1cm. We also have 2 really cruddy shirts made with 17 galvanized steel and a 8mm inner diameter. But they were first try shirts and the weave is in the wrong direction!!

08-25-2004, 06:29 PM

Roman maille was small, much smaller than the medieval stuff. My maille is made from 16 gauge non-galvanized wire with a 1/4 inch ID, which puts me at the upper limit of roman ring size. Not much roman maille is strill around, but from what I've seen, the wire thickness varies from 0.8mm to 1.5mm, with outside diameters from 3mm to 12mm. Alternating riveted and solid (stamped or welded solid rings) was common for iron maille and some copper-alloy rings were butted. 
 
I disagree over riveted maille being that more costly to make. More costly to buy, certainly. More time to make, absolutely. I'm putting together a how-to document describing my experiance making alternating riveted and solid maille. When I get it done I'll post into the files section here: 
 
groups.yahoo.com/group/legio30cohort2/

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-25-2004, 07:43 PM

Hi Neuralmancer, 
That is what I meant, that it was more costly for me to buy it. That, and the fact that I don't have the patience to try and make it myself. 
I do know how to make butted mail, and have done so before, so I wanted to make my Roman shirt in that way, to save money since I cannot afford to buy it. But I was looking for proper historical documentation of its use, of which your info on the butted bronze rings is the first I have received. I think that in itself is sufficient evidence to support the theory that it COULD have been used, and the fact that most surviving examples are corroded beyond the ability to determine its construction... Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-25-2004, 07:47 PM

By the way, what do you guys think of dagged edges on a late period short sleeved mail shirt? Do you think it could have been done? It was done in the earlier periods, but there is no sculptural evidence to prove it was done in the late period, but my thinking is that mail construction couldn't have varied that much from the earlier days. Late mail shirts are usually depicted as short or long sleeved, with straight hems and edges, but do you think they could still have been dagged? Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

08-25-2004, 10:08 PM

I'm not sure about Dagged edges, I know the Auxilliarey had them, so perhaps they would not have them in order to further seperate the two groups 
 
As for The ring size, we use bigger rings mainly because It is easier for our audiance to see and recougnize what we are wearing, it's also faster to make.

08-26-2004, 02:40 AM

Go to: 
 
groups.yahoo.com/group/legio30cohort2/ 
 
and then click on the files section.

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-26-2004, 03:06 AM

Those are really good instructions for making mail. They are the instructions I am going to use for mine, except mine won't have the doubler, since it is a late period shirt. Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

aitor iriarte · 08-26-2004, 05:04 AM

Lucius, 
The butted copper-alloy rings on the Dura mail shirt were placed at non dangerous points (i.e. hems and the like) Simon James states that he couldn't examine the corroded lump of iron rings with X-rays but he adds that there are tell-tale tiny green spots, corresponding to the copper-alloy rivets closing the rivetted rings... 
About dagged ends, the technique didn't change but the fashion and tactical needs yes. A mail shirt is a garment 'cut/knit' from a pattern and, in late period (third century included) the pattern seemed to include longer shirts with side slits and, later, even long sleeves. 
 
Don't worry about butted mail, most Roman re-enactment groups (mine included) are wearing it, just because properly made mail is too expensive for our budget. Nobody will notice it unless at very close range and we don't intend to fight the barbarians, do we? 
 
Aitor Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 8/26/04 7:07 am

08-26-2004, 07:13 AM

Aitor 
 
The mail shirt from the Sutton Hoo burial also has the copper rivets showing up in the same way. Rather surprising since most of the medieval and later mail I've handled seem to use iron rivets. 
 
As for mail size, the RMRS use mostly 4-6mm, though Len our Centurion, has 3mm . 
 
Celer.

aitor iriarte · 08-26-2004, 07:19 AM

I don't know if the Sutton Hoo (I have got the complete report, but not here) rivets were analyzed but copper rivets would make sense for and easier rivetting. I suppose that iron rivets would make a stronger connection, though. 
Wow, 3 mm rings! 
 
Aitor

08-26-2004, 01:22 PM

Aitor 
 
3mm .... yup! The effect is not anything like as flexible as even my 4mm, but it looks amazing. The guy who made it must have had clocked up a few minor psychotic episodes by the time he finished. 
 
Incidently, the fragment of mail at the Lunt fort is also 3mm apparently, though I may be wrong. Must check next time I'm there. 
 
Celer.

Crispvs · 08-26-2004, 06:56 PM

When we say 3,4 or 6mm rings in the RMRS we are talking about the INTERNAL diameter of the rings rather than the external diameter, as I believe some other groups do, just to clarify Celer's statement slightly. 
 
 
"The problem with butted tings is that a good stab will part them. So Arrows can penatrate, as can most Glaldius thrusts. The only thing they really stop is slashes, and even then they would probably need some repair." 
 
Have you tested this? If so have you published the results of your tests? This is an issue which has been debated endlessly in the past. For my own two sestertii here I can add that the same man who made the 3mm mail shirt for Len Morgan also made a 4mm shirt for a night club bouncer later the same year. Shortly after taking delivery of it the man was wearing it under his suit one night when a disgruntled man who he had refused entry to the club produced a bowie knife and stabbed him quite forcefuly with it. The knife failed to penetrate the shirt to any significant degree and the tip of it (I believe about 5mm) broke off in the mail. For the record, the mail was butted rather than rivetted. I do not know how much bruising the bouncer suffered. 
 
Crispvs

08-26-2004, 09:08 PM

Crispvs, I have not tested this, I was under the impression it was more commen knowledge. I do however know that My "homemade" rings do fall through each other, and are ulled apart, which leads me to believe they would not stand a stab. I do kow that rings bought online, and cut with a laser cutter do close up better and don't come apart as easily.

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 08-26-2004, 11:13 PM

I have made chain mail with 1/4" links before (it was in the form of an SCA gorget, however, not a shirt), and it is very strong and hasn't lost a link yet. The wire is 17 guage steel and I cut the rings using a pair of diagonal pliers. If you cut them very closely and carefully, they will close up completely and not fall apart. 
That is amazing about that bouncer! I didn't realize butted mail was THAT strong! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica

08-27-2004, 06:30 AM

It depends on the gauge of wire used but 4mm ID butted mail offers reasonable resistance to thrusting attacks - especially against broad blades such as bowie knives. Narrower blades, most arrows, etc would have little problem punching through. The fact that the blade broke off in the mail indicates that the bouncer wasn't simply standing there allowing himself to get stabbed. If he did, it is more likely that the knife would have penetrated. Riveted mail is much, much more resistant to thrusting attacks. Iron rivets are better than copper alloy. Usually when riveted links fail, they don't fail at the join, but elsewhere on the link so a riveted link actually offers the same degree of protection as a solid link. 
 
Also, "maille" is a French word. It shouldn't be used unless one is writing in a French context. Just as one might use "hamata" when writing in a Roman/Latin context. "Mail" is the English equivalent and should be the preferred term when writing in an English context. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 8/27/04 8:37 am

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